I remember a Thread about this car.
https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/new-purchase-first-z-seeking-history.24542/
Last edited:
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£70k 1969 Sam modded by the z farm?
- Thread starter Alphabettispaghetti
- Start date
I remember a Thread about this car.
https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/new-purchase-first-z-seeking-history.24542/
Good memory Rob!
Beyond what has already been discussed, in my personal opinion there is an important grey area to consider: While this vehicle has already been registered in the UK under the old rules and assigned an age appropriate VRM, if the vehicle is ever inspected as part of the DVLA’s random inspections* (or for other reasons), there is the possibility of falling foul of the new DVLA rules regarding classic cars. Especially given that by the seller’s own admission / words, the components are from different aged vehicles and the monocoque has (according to the DVLA's definition) been substantially altered by cutting away parts of it.
As a buyer I would be asking the seller is if this car has been through the appropriate DVLA certification for either:
1. A Radically Altered Vehicle or;
2. Reconstructed Classic Vehicle or;
3. If it has had the (built up vehicle inspection report) V627/1 form completed and approved?
I guess the key questions are: while strictly speaking it may not be required to have one of the above tests, will it matter if it’s ever examined and what are the risks to the owner? Only the DVLA themselves can authoritatively assess / answer these questions. But, what if you ask and they say "yes it matters", can it potentially end up on a Q plate?
(* Much to the dismay of classic car owners and clubs, the DVLA has in recent times sent random letters to some classic car owners requesting that they justify why they should keep their age related VRM.)
A good article to read here.
Edit: Here's an interesting quote from the DVLA website:
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
Vehicles with a Certificate of Destruction (CoD) must never reappear as complete vehicles or be presented for registration, though some components may be recycled. You cannot keep the original registration or vehicle identification number.
Beyond what has already been discussed, in my personal opinion there is an important grey area to consider: While this vehicle has already been registered in the UK under the old rules and assigned an age appropriate VRM, if the vehicle is ever inspected as part of the DVLA’s random inspections* (or for other reasons), there is the possibility of falling foul of the new DVLA rules regarding classic cars. Especially given that by the seller’s own admission / words, the components are from different aged vehicles and the monocoque has (according to the DVLA's definition) been substantially altered by cutting away parts of it.
As a buyer I would be asking the seller is if this car has been through the appropriate DVLA certification for either:
1. A Radically Altered Vehicle or;
2. Reconstructed Classic Vehicle or;
3. If it has had the (built up vehicle inspection report) V627/1 form completed and approved?
I guess the key questions are: while strictly speaking it may not be required to have one of the above tests, will it matter if it’s ever examined and what are the risks to the owner? Only the DVLA themselves can authoritatively assess / answer these questions. But, what if you ask and they say "yes it matters", can it potentially end up on a Q plate?
(* Much to the dismay of classic car owners and clubs, the DVLA has in recent times sent random letters to some classic car owners requesting that they justify why they should keep their age related VRM.)
A good article to read here.
Edit: Here's an interesting quote from the DVLA website:
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
- it has fewer than 8 points
- it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
- there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Vehicles with a Certificate of Destruction (CoD) must never reappear as complete vehicles or be presented for registration, though some components may be recycled. You cannot keep the original registration or vehicle identification number.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/vehicle-identification-number
Looks like you can get a new VIN allocated if it passes everything so whatever is currently on the car would be void.
Looks like you can get a new VIN allocated if it passes everything so whatever is currently on the car would be void.
grb184
Club Member
All,
I have been in contact with the previous owner in regards to clarifying the status of this car he has asked me to post the following...... posted verbatim from his response to me
For the avoidance of doubt, this car was bought by Duncan Pearcey from Mr S Megarrell, Canada, in 2007. I bought it from Duncan Pearcey, as a suitable base for a pre 1970 rally car. The rules for Global Rallies “friendship rallies” required pre 70s cars. When “The Z Farm” set about re-building this car to their Marathon Rally spec, there wasn’t much of the original car that enabled or justified restoration. As the start date of “La Gira Andina” Rally approached, Duncan Pearcey was instructed to use whatever early parts he could to meet the deadlines. Hence much of the body comprises ‘72 and ‘73 parts, as stated clearly in the Master Build/Specification Sheet, used in my advertisements. During the 16,000 kms in South America, 20% of which was on “ripio”, the car received a terrible hammering and needed a lot of attention. The rest is described accurately in the words attached.
Master Build/Specification Sheet
1969 Datsun 240 Z (LHD) 888 JXT Vin No: HLS30-00059 Engine Number: L24 2204
Length: 4.18m. Width: 1.63m. Height: 1.6m. Weight: 1,050 Kg. First Reg: Canada November 1969
Origination:
After the 1969 car was imported into the UK from Canada, in 2010, the car was rebuilt, to our order, by Duncan Pearcey of “The Z Farm”, to its ‘Marathon Rally Specification’. At that time, the original bodywork was in a lamentable state and had to be replaced. In 2012, after the car’s successful completion of the 16,000 kms “La Gira Andina” Rally in South America, it was substantially rebuilt again, by Duncan Pearcey. He also reworked the engine to produce more power and installed an uprated high lift performance camshaft. During 2018 and 2019, further substantial upgrades and improvements were carried out by Derek Hunt of Automonza, which led to a further major rebuild, also exposing and eradicating all rust and carefully waxoyling the complete car. Accordingly, as per all rally and race cars, very few “original” parts remain, and a substantial part of the bodywork is comprised of 1972 and 1973 parts. The engine block, L24 2204, is the original from the car as it left the factory in Japan in 1969. The removal of the existing Jenvey Ignition System and reversion to the fitted 2” SU HS8 carbs and electronic ignition system, which are included, would enable the car to enter Rallies with pre-1970 rules. The car is in “Samuri” livery but is not a Spike Anderson “Samuri”, although finished to a similar, or higher, specification. I am the second owner and, over the last 10 years, have spared no expense in bringing it up to an incredibly high specification. All the painstaking work over the last few years, at a figure well in excess of £100,000, carried out by Derek Hunt, to the highest quality, has ensured that it drives superbly, is very comfortable and is as reliable as a modern-day car. Yet, it can easily be converted to rally format.
My journey with my Datsun over the last 10 years, making it into a truly great car, (in my humble opinion), has been a fantastic experience. On occasions it has been painful, when things didn’t go to plan, and, obviously, it has been extremely expensive. In truth, if I was starting again now, and did not want a car eligible for pre-1970 Rallies, I would most likely go to MZR Roadsports in Bradford, for one of their reconstructed Datsun 240Zs. They’ve taken all the pain and produced something that I now have, but at half the cost, even at their starting price of something like £89,995, I believe. But I’ll let mine go for £69,500. You’ll have to make up your own mind. (And I’m sure they would provide you with one in a light interior like mine, if you asked them nicely!!)
Bodywork:
LHD. Rally reinforcements to engine bay. Driver’s seat mounting rails lowered. Removal of spare wheel holder, original petrol tank and all of the original small storage deposits, to create a much larger open flat floor space. See “Larger Petrol Tank” below.
Colour:
“Samuri” racing colours: Tango Bronze Metallic on Datsun/Nissan 110 Red.
Trim:
Roll hoop with diagonal bracing, by Protection & Performance. Sound insulation quilt fitted throughout. Leather clad Corbeau racing seats. Door & trim panels beige leather. Carpet & interior finish by artisan coach trimmer who is retained by Williams F1 Racing. Original dash encapsulated with special vinyl moulded beige skin. Tailored anti-reflective non-skid dash cover.
Engine:
Original 240 block, L24 2204, with 280Z internals, with special gas-flow cylinder head, with 274 degree camshaft.
Transmission:
Reconditioned Nissan S13 5-speed gear box with short-shift mechanism. Upgraded prop-shaft, aligned with profiled alloy spacers to lower diff input angle.
Differential:
R200 with bespoke solid alloy nose mounting.
Fuel & Ignition System:
Jenvey individual throttle bodies, foam filter, with fresh air intake ducting supplying the Jenvey throttle bodies, long range (80 Litre) fuel tank, internal Walbro GSS341 in-tank fuel pump, Kunifer fuel lines with Pico 330cc/min fuel injectors, installed and calibrated by Lloyds Specialist Developments Ltd, with the aid of a Dynapack Chassis Dynamometer. Coil pack, distributor-less ignition system with fully integrated programable CANEMS (02385) ECU Management System.
Larger petrol tank:
The original petrol tank has been replaced by an Alloy Foam-filled 80-litre Fuel Tank below the rear deck, providing a much greater range and a much larger flat floor open storage space in the rear cabin.
Exhaust:
Tubular six branch manifold 3-2-1 mild steel rally spec, with stainless heat shield to protect the fresh air intake ducting.
Cooling:
Copper and brass triple core radiator with thermostatically controlled Pacet fan. Billet grill in black powder coat. Special bespoke 2-position rising bonnet catches to assist engine cooling in very hot conditions.
Suspension:
Reinforced turret tops with adjustable top mount shock absorbers, with BC Racing coil-over strut conversion, tig welded to later 260Z Struts, larger tubes/hubs, 150lbs rears, 170lbs front. 280Z anti roll bars front & rear.
Steering:
STD rack & pinion rebuilt with be-spoke inner track control arms. Period Moto-Lita Steering Wheel.
Brakes:
MJP Motorsport conversion utilising Toyota 4 runner 4 piston Callipers, new bespoke disc to hub alloy adaptors with alloy wheel spacers. Rear hubs running later standard 260Z wheel cylinders and brake shoes and hand brake mechanism, with bespoke alloy handbrake lever, stops and pins. Stainless steel braided hoses all round.
Wheels:
Minilite 7J x15 with Verdenstein Quatrac 5 Tyres. Spacesaver spare wheel, with bespoke roofrack to carry puncture to repair centre. Boot Cargo Net.
Interior Equipment:
Bespoke white face instrumentation. Brantz trip-meter (LED Type). Map reading light. Alpine CD head unit with Focal speaker system. Inertia reel seat belts.
Electrical:
125A main safety fuse installed. Headlamp wiring harness upgrade and ammeter to voltmeter conversion for improved electrical reliability. Twin Cibie spotlights and large 60’s style reversing light. standard 12V battery with high grade marine quality Isolator.
Miscellaneous:
Perspex Headlamp Covers. 4 PVC mud-flaps. 2 towing eyes front and 2 towing eyes rear. Substantial removable alloy sump guard and fuel tank guard. Extensive chassis, body and engine bay rust protection. All suspension components and fixings brackets have electro-plated finish. Stainless steel fixings used throughout.
DYNO TEST SEPT 2019:
190.02 bhp @ 5616 rpm directly at the hubs.
184.74 lbs/ft @ 4525 rpm directly at the hubs.
I have been in contact with the previous owner in regards to clarifying the status of this car he has asked me to post the following...... posted verbatim from his response to me
For the avoidance of doubt, this car was bought by Duncan Pearcey from Mr S Megarrell, Canada, in 2007. I bought it from Duncan Pearcey, as a suitable base for a pre 1970 rally car. The rules for Global Rallies “friendship rallies” required pre 70s cars. When “The Z Farm” set about re-building this car to their Marathon Rally spec, there wasn’t much of the original car that enabled or justified restoration. As the start date of “La Gira Andina” Rally approached, Duncan Pearcey was instructed to use whatever early parts he could to meet the deadlines. Hence much of the body comprises ‘72 and ‘73 parts, as stated clearly in the Master Build/Specification Sheet, used in my advertisements. During the 16,000 kms in South America, 20% of which was on “ripio”, the car received a terrible hammering and needed a lot of attention. The rest is described accurately in the words attached.
Master Build/Specification Sheet
1969 Datsun 240 Z (LHD) 888 JXT Vin No: HLS30-00059 Engine Number: L24 2204
Length: 4.18m. Width: 1.63m. Height: 1.6m. Weight: 1,050 Kg. First Reg: Canada November 1969
Origination:
After the 1969 car was imported into the UK from Canada, in 2010, the car was rebuilt, to our order, by Duncan Pearcey of “The Z Farm”, to its ‘Marathon Rally Specification’. At that time, the original bodywork was in a lamentable state and had to be replaced. In 2012, after the car’s successful completion of the 16,000 kms “La Gira Andina” Rally in South America, it was substantially rebuilt again, by Duncan Pearcey. He also reworked the engine to produce more power and installed an uprated high lift performance camshaft. During 2018 and 2019, further substantial upgrades and improvements were carried out by Derek Hunt of Automonza, which led to a further major rebuild, also exposing and eradicating all rust and carefully waxoyling the complete car. Accordingly, as per all rally and race cars, very few “original” parts remain, and a substantial part of the bodywork is comprised of 1972 and 1973 parts. The engine block, L24 2204, is the original from the car as it left the factory in Japan in 1969. The removal of the existing Jenvey Ignition System and reversion to the fitted 2” SU HS8 carbs and electronic ignition system, which are included, would enable the car to enter Rallies with pre-1970 rules. The car is in “Samuri” livery but is not a Spike Anderson “Samuri”, although finished to a similar, or higher, specification. I am the second owner and, over the last 10 years, have spared no expense in bringing it up to an incredibly high specification. All the painstaking work over the last few years, at a figure well in excess of £100,000, carried out by Derek Hunt, to the highest quality, has ensured that it drives superbly, is very comfortable and is as reliable as a modern-day car. Yet, it can easily be converted to rally format.
My journey with my Datsun over the last 10 years, making it into a truly great car, (in my humble opinion), has been a fantastic experience. On occasions it has been painful, when things didn’t go to plan, and, obviously, it has been extremely expensive. In truth, if I was starting again now, and did not want a car eligible for pre-1970 Rallies, I would most likely go to MZR Roadsports in Bradford, for one of their reconstructed Datsun 240Zs. They’ve taken all the pain and produced something that I now have, but at half the cost, even at their starting price of something like £89,995, I believe. But I’ll let mine go for £69,500. You’ll have to make up your own mind. (And I’m sure they would provide you with one in a light interior like mine, if you asked them nicely!!)
Bodywork:
LHD. Rally reinforcements to engine bay. Driver’s seat mounting rails lowered. Removal of spare wheel holder, original petrol tank and all of the original small storage deposits, to create a much larger open flat floor space. See “Larger Petrol Tank” below.
Colour:
“Samuri” racing colours: Tango Bronze Metallic on Datsun/Nissan 110 Red.
Trim:
Roll hoop with diagonal bracing, by Protection & Performance. Sound insulation quilt fitted throughout. Leather clad Corbeau racing seats. Door & trim panels beige leather. Carpet & interior finish by artisan coach trimmer who is retained by Williams F1 Racing. Original dash encapsulated with special vinyl moulded beige skin. Tailored anti-reflective non-skid dash cover.
Engine:
Original 240 block, L24 2204, with 280Z internals, with special gas-flow cylinder head, with 274 degree camshaft.
Transmission:
Reconditioned Nissan S13 5-speed gear box with short-shift mechanism. Upgraded prop-shaft, aligned with profiled alloy spacers to lower diff input angle.
Differential:
R200 with bespoke solid alloy nose mounting.
Fuel & Ignition System:
Jenvey individual throttle bodies, foam filter, with fresh air intake ducting supplying the Jenvey throttle bodies, long range (80 Litre) fuel tank, internal Walbro GSS341 in-tank fuel pump, Kunifer fuel lines with Pico 330cc/min fuel injectors, installed and calibrated by Lloyds Specialist Developments Ltd, with the aid of a Dynapack Chassis Dynamometer. Coil pack, distributor-less ignition system with fully integrated programable CANEMS (02385) ECU Management System.
Larger petrol tank:
The original petrol tank has been replaced by an Alloy Foam-filled 80-litre Fuel Tank below the rear deck, providing a much greater range and a much larger flat floor open storage space in the rear cabin.
Exhaust:
Tubular six branch manifold 3-2-1 mild steel rally spec, with stainless heat shield to protect the fresh air intake ducting.
Cooling:
Copper and brass triple core radiator with thermostatically controlled Pacet fan. Billet grill in black powder coat. Special bespoke 2-position rising bonnet catches to assist engine cooling in very hot conditions.
Suspension:
Reinforced turret tops with adjustable top mount shock absorbers, with BC Racing coil-over strut conversion, tig welded to later 260Z Struts, larger tubes/hubs, 150lbs rears, 170lbs front. 280Z anti roll bars front & rear.
Steering:
STD rack & pinion rebuilt with be-spoke inner track control arms. Period Moto-Lita Steering Wheel.
Brakes:
MJP Motorsport conversion utilising Toyota 4 runner 4 piston Callipers, new bespoke disc to hub alloy adaptors with alloy wheel spacers. Rear hubs running later standard 260Z wheel cylinders and brake shoes and hand brake mechanism, with bespoke alloy handbrake lever, stops and pins. Stainless steel braided hoses all round.
Wheels:
Minilite 7J x15 with Verdenstein Quatrac 5 Tyres. Spacesaver spare wheel, with bespoke roofrack to carry puncture to repair centre. Boot Cargo Net.
Interior Equipment:
Bespoke white face instrumentation. Brantz trip-meter (LED Type). Map reading light. Alpine CD head unit with Focal speaker system. Inertia reel seat belts.
Electrical:
125A main safety fuse installed. Headlamp wiring harness upgrade and ammeter to voltmeter conversion for improved electrical reliability. Twin Cibie spotlights and large 60’s style reversing light. standard 12V battery with high grade marine quality Isolator.
Miscellaneous:
Perspex Headlamp Covers. 4 PVC mud-flaps. 2 towing eyes front and 2 towing eyes rear. Substantial removable alloy sump guard and fuel tank guard. Extensive chassis, body and engine bay rust protection. All suspension components and fixings brackets have electro-plated finish. Stainless steel fixings used throughout.
DYNO TEST SEPT 2019:
190.02 bhp @ 5616 rpm directly at the hubs.
184.74 lbs/ft @ 4525 rpm directly at the hubs.
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
where's all the money that's been spent? in a few pockets of the companies mentioned at a guess.
I feel for the seller.
at least he can pinpoint the time it became a ringer and by who?
I feel for the seller.
at least he can pinpoint the time it became a ringer and by who?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
So, what's *your* motivation here? Do you actually believe the story that you are conveying on behalf of the owner?
I'm somewhat nonplussed to see this topic floating to the surface once again. Anyone can see what has gone on here. Let's make no bones about it, the car is a RINGER. That's the vernacular term, but essentially we are looking at a car which has had its original identity removed and another attached in its place.
Why? Why was it deemed necessary or desirable to pin a 1969 production-dated identity on a much later bodyshell? Vanity. That's all. Vanity. Not even well disguised. Inept, blatant. Foolish.
For reference, here's the *real* 'HLS30-00059' when it was for sale in Canada as a rusty wreck:
Attachments
It seemed plausible to me that he bought it and ringed it in order to have a car that could be used in pre-1970 competition. Not legal, but sort of understandable and victimless until its sold without full disclosure.
Don't you buy that Alan?
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Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
I don't know who is responsible for what here. Who dreamed it up, who paid for it, who did the work, I don't know.
I still don't get it. If someone cares enough to enter a car into a pre-1970 production race/rally/event, would they not care enough to keep it real?
There's a line of argument that because the S30-series debuted - and was actually sold to the general public - in 1969, then any S30-series model types which were part of that debut (so, S30, PS30, HS30 and HLS30*-prefixed variants) should qualify within any such cutoff without having to actually have been manufactured in 1969 (*this should NOT include '280Z' variants). But pinning such an early and distinctive chassis number on another car which is of a distinctly different, and later type - and so easily identified as such - is just...... unbelievably crass. And if it was allowed to take part in that race/rally/event as a 1969 built car, then it just shows how incredibly badly informed are the organisers and fellow participants. What would they be doing in stipulating a 1969 production date without the basic knowledge which would allow them to curate and enforce it?
Yes, not legal. Not understandable (to me, anyway...) and I would class the *real* HLS30-00059 as a victim here, as well as the - identity unknown - later production car which has had its true identity removed and discarded as part of this confection.
This is an artless piece of scammery with no apparent empathy for its subject(s). HLS30-00059 was - as an early production example - something fairly special. Maybe it could not be saved, but pinning that identity on something so much later, so different in fabric and detail, is just....
Words fail me.
grb184
Club Member
None at all other than to add to the topic as a matter of interest, I simply asked some questions and this is what I received.
Bazzateer
Club Member
Whilst it's true that competition cars were often re-shelled in period it will usually have been done with a new unused shell. To 'create' a replica of sorts decades later with a used shell is not keeping with the spirit of the thing. Regardless of the intentions, it does appear that this is indeed a ringer.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Would you care to share the questions you asked?
If this was a legitimate 69 car it still wouldn't be worth anything like the asking price.
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
if it was a legitimate 69 car, that was standard and properly restored, it'll be worth more than the asking price.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
It might not have been far off by now. Certain people have been paying quite a premium for 1969-dated models, and a two digit body serial number is even more sought-after.
In HLS30-00059's case, when it was up for sale in Canada it was fairly complete and still carried many distinctive early production components that are highly prized and can change hands for surprising amounts. However, the bodyshell itself was seriously decrepit and that was a key factor in its fate.
There are people who follow the whereabouts of these early cars, so nobody should be surprised that when a known, early production car's identity suddenly pitches up on what is clearly a later body, the alarm bells start ringing.
How much is a late 70 'Series 1' worth ?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
The question isn't specific enough to allow an accurate answer.
These cars - obviously - need to be 'valued' on a case-by-case basis. Condition, it goes without saying, is a huge part of the equation. So is variant (EG a 'PS30' model will always be eclipsed in value by a 'PS30-SB' model of similar age and condition) so is location and reason for valuation (insurance valuation, auction estimate, dealer asking price, private seller asking price). So many variables. And people will always offer the view that something is only 'worth' what someone is willing to pay for it...
But these days - generally speaking - individuals and businesses are seeking out early production examples and are paying more for them in comparison to later production examples of similar condition. This has nothing to do with which is the 'better' car to drive, or which had the benefit of improvement and development.
Coming back to the thread topic, and this particular car, the above can be a trap for the aspiring 'collector'/enthusiast who wants to ride this early production date kudos train, thinks he's buying a rare double-digit body serial number 1969 production car, but is buying nothing of the sort. Best avoided.
uk66fastback
Club Member
Can't disagree with Albrecht on this. A shame really because the guy has obviously spent a lot of money on getting it to where it is - but has he been lead down the garden path or been complicit?
JK240
Club Member