andrew muir
Club Member
Handy for me though!
Causing quite a stir isn't it
It's in danger of showing its knickers and letting itself down, and letting us all down in the process.
Hyping is all very well as long as there is a sound basis of demonstrable fact, provenance and precedent. and overvaluation of lesser, 'cooking' cars starts to make a mockery of the whole thing, in my opinion.
It's only the auction house that risks being mocked....and IF the values shoot up like that for an non-original (ie restored) unknown car, it's great for the others - certainly NOT negative !
Ok I see a lot of people who don't have all the information making assumptions about something only a small number of people have seen and only a handful know the full story.
I'm priveleged to know and be part of that story.
As far as linking the values to Big Sam and FFA,what I actually said was how much are they worth and how original are they?
Ultimately it's about reality vs people's perspective really, and uninformed, second hand opinions are inadvisable, assumption is the mother of all f@#$ups, and there is no truth only only opinion.
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Agreed. And this has, albeit admittedly not as well known obviously. However, as you said how many at GoodWood are original? Exactly my point. This has almost been a time capsule car - yes it has been " restored ",but it would be more accurate to say it has been repaired to its race spec/livery.When you buy a car like FFA and big sam, you're not buying an original car, you're buying a bit of history? How many cars at the goodwood races are original? Their value is they've got actual, credible history linked to them and their chassis numbers.
Oh and you have to factor in with the price of GoodWood race cars the parts/man hours to maintain - JD Classics paid nearly £100000 for big Sam in 2010 i believe? 40-50k restoration maybe? So if they were selling today they'd ask 200,000-250,000? Or maybe not.When you buy a car like FFA and big sam, you're not buying an original car, you're buying a bit of history? How many cars at the goodwood races are original? Their value is they've got actual, credible history linked to them and their chassis numbers.
As far as if it fails to sell - well that's someone else's loss and the current owners gain. He will gain if it sells too. His worth - as much as the car'sNo, I don't agree. The estimate - if its the opinion of the auction house - is ill-informed, out of context and leaves too much of a gap to cars of a similar spec.
This is not a car with an interesting and/or illustrious period competition history. This is not a rare factory variant or homologation special. It's not a 'Barn Find' original survivor, either. This is - let's be frank here - a custom car with some rather mild modifications and a particular paint job.
It is being over-hyped for what it is and I think that's unwise. It's also not "great for the others", as the supply of cars that are - when all is said and done - very similar is still high. An auction estimate of around 30k GBP would be more realistic and the car could easily sell for more with a fair wind behind it. If the car in question fails to attain the heady expectations of the high estimate it will be seen as some sort of failure, and that's bad for everyone.
As is so often the case in the world of the S30-series Z cars, I think the auction house simply doesn't know what it is talking about.
Oh and you have to factor in with the price of GoodWood race cars the parts/man hours to maintain - JD Classics paid nearly £100000 for big Sam in 2010 i believe? 40-50k restoration maybe? So if they were selling today they'd ask 200,000-250,000? Or maybe not.
jaydeescuba said:ExNissan works driver Tony Walker has an 80's 240zx that Nissan gave him when he left their employment that's easily 250k. The price of these early Zed's is increasing anyway - and the special few even more so.
jaydeescuba said:The CA numbers are Competition Accessories - more than likely from Andrew Cronk garage where the car was originally purchased from in Reigate.
Jack's father, obviously caring that his son isn't likely to kill himself, and coming from a wealthy family, would have had no problem funding the best possible for Jack.
Will have to come back to this as I'm not at the workshop. Got a life tooAgain, you're citing Big Sam as a reference for the car in question. I don't see that there's any direct - or even indirect - comparison. They are singularly different cars with different situations.
"80's 240zx"? I think you're referring to a BS110 Nissan 240RS, and 250k GBP is waaaay past what the best of them change hands for currently. And even that is a can 'o worms best not opened... Suffice to say that rices of BS110 240RSs have little or nothing to do with HS30 Datsun 240Zs, which were produced in exponentially higher quantities and have an exponentially higher survival rate.
Sorry but, "CA numbers"? "Competition Accessories"? That's a new one on me...
Nissan sold competition related (race & rally) parts via their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan (later worldwide). The proper Works cars used some of these parts, but in most instances they used modified versions or versions that were several steps different than the over-the-counter parts, as well as parts that were purely Works-only (and which were not sold to the general public or privateers). There was nobody in the UK supplying these parts to the general public in the UK in any organised way in the period that you are claiming for this car, and there was no mechanism in the UK for privateers to get hold of pure Works parts and fit them to their car in 1971/2/3, except used parts via the back door of O.W.S.S.
So what are these parts you are referring to? What do they look like, where are they on the car, and what are their "CA numbers"...?
As far as if it fails to sell - well that's someone else's loss and the current owners gain. He will gain if it sells too. His worth - as much as the car's
The "estimate" is from an expert in the market that has years of experience and he admitted it was difficult to put a price on BECAUSE it's so unusual a find.
jaydeescuba said:Car stored for 30years and identity almost forgotten then call it a barn find, call it whatever you want,but it's a pre-Big Sam car, so not commissioned based on that story.
It's chassis number within a few hundred of FFA196L iirc.
jaydesscuba said:I think before you disrespect the chef and argue over the recipe you should at least look at the food, never mind actually taste it
Will have to come back to this as I'm not at the workshop. Got a life too
That wasn't a dig btw lolUnlike me, who hasn't.
Which kinda brings me back to asking which car CAN it be compared to?My personal opinion is that the auction 'estimate' is ludicrously high. I don't see any recent precedent for a similar car attaining such a price in the UK market, so I don't see how the auction house could come up with it other than by comparing like with not like...
Again, mention of 'Big Sam' and 'FFA' as though they are relevant reference points for a car that has very little in common with them. The car(s) that became known as 'Big Sam' (long story) were around for quite a while before Spike Anderson and Bob Gathercole took charge of them, so "pre-Big Sam" is perhaps a little beside the point here. Chassis number bingo can be fun, but I don't think having a chassis number "within a few hundred of FFA 196L" is going to command a premium when they both started out as standard, showroom stock road cars...
I'm merely reacting to the hyperbole surrounding the car and its sale. No disrespect to the chef (Nissan, Spike Anderson and whoever else) but I usually find that rather overcooked sales blurbs are best served with a little extra seasoning, and in particular a few extra pinches of salt. The cars themselves are often the innocent parties in all this, and its the chefs involved - usually too many of them - who are to blame.
Tip o' the hat from me to you for volunteering to stick up for the car in question, but the immodest and somewhat overheated sale estimate is setting the tone for the conversation. We would probably not be talking about the car if it had a more realistic estimate. Sorry, but some of what you are claiming for the car (I'm sure in good faith) like Works style "chassis reinforcement" and FFA-like Tokico suspension is frankly third hand nonsense which doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. That too would not matter so much had it not been cited as part justification for the absurdly high estimate, but seeing as it is being pointed at it seems only right to let a little sunshine in on the 'Samuri' *magic*...