One Former Keeper

[andrew muir]

Handy for me though!

 

[jaydeescuba]

How's that Andrew?

 

[jaydeescuba]

Couple of images the previous owner sent

 

[JK240]

I do like a happy ending. Great to meet you Jay and Paul (and Johnny Rotten too ).

 

[jaydeescuba]

Causing quite a stir isn't it

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[Albrecht]

Causing quite a stir isn't it

It's in danger of showing its knickers and letting itself down, and letting us all down in the process.

Hyping is all very well as long as there is a sound basis of demonstrable fact, provenance and precedent. The first two are often a bit wobbly when examples of 'Samuri' cars are concerned (possibly part of their, er, 'charm'...) but precedent seems clearly lacking in this car's case. Why is its estimate being linked to the values of cars like Big Sam and FFA?

It's clearly not on the same level of significance as the 'Holy Trinity' of Samuri cars (Big Sam, LAL and FFA) and overvaluation of lesser, 'cooking' cars starts to make a mockery of the whole thing, in my opinion.

 

[SeanDezart]

It's in danger of showing its knickers and letting itself down, and letting us all down in the process.

Hyping is all very well as long as there is a sound basis of demonstrable fact, provenance and precedent. and overvaluation of lesser, 'cooking' cars starts to make a mockery of the whole thing, in my opinion.

It's only the auction house that risks being mocked....and IF the values shoot up like that for an non-original (ie restored) unknown car, it's great for the others - certainly NOT negative !

 

[Albrecht]

It's only the auction house that risks being mocked....and IF the values shoot up like that for an non-original (ie restored) unknown car, it's great for the others - certainly NOT negative !

No, I don't agree. The estimate - if its the opinion of the auction house - is ill-informed, out of context and leaves too much of a gap to cars of a similar spec.

This is not a car with an interesting and/or illustrious period competition history. This is not a rare factory variant or homologation special. It's not a 'Barn Find' original survivor, either. This is - let's be frank here - a custom car with some rather mild modifications and a particular paint job.

It is being over-hyped for what it is and I think that's unwise. It's also not "great for the others", as the supply of cars that are - when all is said and done - very similar is still high. An auction estimate of around 30k GBP would be more realistic and the car could easily sell for more with a fair wind behind it. If the car in question fails to attain the heady expectations of the high estimate it will be seen as some sort of failure, and that's bad for everyone.

As is so often the case in the world of the S30-series Z cars, I think the auction house simply doesn't know what it is talking about.

 

[jaydeescuba]

Ok I see a lot of people who don't have all the information making assumptions about something only a small number of people have seen and only a handful know the full story.
I'm priveleged to know and be part of that story.
As far as linking the values to Big Sam and FFA,what I actually said was how much are they worth and how original are they?
Ultimately it's about reality vs people's perspective really, and uninformed, second hand opinions are inadvisable, assumption is the mother of all f@#$ups, and there is no truth only only opinion.



Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

Ok I see a lot of people who don't have all the information making assumptions about something only a small number of people have seen and only a handful know the full story.
I'm priveleged to know and be part of that story.
As far as linking the values to Big Sam and FFA,what I actually said was how much are they worth and how original are they?
Ultimately it's about reality vs people's perspective really, and uninformed, second hand opinions are inadvisable, assumption is the mother of all f@#$ups, and there is no truth only only opinion.



Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

When you buy a car like FFA and big sam, you're not buying an original car, you're buying a bit of history? How many cars at the goodwood races are original? Their value is they've got actual, credible history linked to them and their chassis numbers.

 

[jaydeescuba]

When you buy a car like FFA and big sam, you're not buying an original car, you're buying a bit of history? How many cars at the goodwood races are original? Their value is they've got actual, credible history linked to them and their chassis numbers.

Agreed. And this has, albeit admittedly not as well known obviously. However, as you said how many at GoodWood are original? Exactly my point. This has almost been a time capsule car - yes it has been " restored ",but it would be more accurate to say it has been repaired to its race spec/livery.
Based on the information from the previous owner, and the fact it was only Sprinted for a short period,the mileage is as authenticated as it can be. Nearly 30 years in dry storage after an issue with brakes and it was more like a 5-10 year old datsun with minor rust issues that need addressing. These have been, by a Master Painter/Panel Beater/Restorer,of 30+years experience in the trade,who happens to be the owner as well.
This is not a car that someone has found and paid someone else to do a bit of a makeover on.
This is also not a car that's been ragged half to death in it's 40+years of life and it hasn't had untold pairs of hands attempting to make do and mend repairs,or drive it whilst restoring it.
In actuality it's had an open-cheque book restoration. Whatever it has needed has been done to take it back to EXACTLY as it was when Jack Phare got it back commissioned from Spike at RHS.
Attention to detail is the owner's biggest character flaw as well as his biggest asset.


Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[jaydeescuba]

When you buy a car like FFA and big sam, you're not buying an original car, you're buying a bit of history? How many cars at the goodwood races are original? Their value is they've got actual, credible history linked to them and their chassis numbers.

Oh and you have to factor in with the price of GoodWood race cars the parts/man hours to maintain - JD Classics paid nearly £100000 for big Sam in 2010 i believe? 40-50k restoration maybe? So if they were selling today they'd ask 200,000-250,000? Or maybe not.
ExNissan works driver Tony Walker has an 80's 240zx that Nissan gave him when he left their employment that's easily 250k. The price of these early Zed's is increasing anyway - and the special few even more so.


The CA numbers are Competition Accessories - more than likely from Andrew Cronk garage where the car was originally purchased from in Reigate.
Jack's father, obviously caring that his son isn't likely to kill himself, and coming from a wealthy family, would have had no problem funding the best possible for Jack.


Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[jaydeescuba]

No, I don't agree. The estimate - if its the opinion of the auction house - is ill-informed, out of context and leaves too much of a gap to cars of a similar spec.

This is not a car with an interesting and/or illustrious period competition history. This is not a rare factory variant or homologation special. It's not a 'Barn Find' original survivor, either. This is - let's be frank here - a custom car with some rather mild modifications and a particular paint job.

It is being over-hyped for what it is and I think that's unwise. It's also not "great for the others", as the supply of cars that are - when all is said and done - very similar is still high. An auction estimate of around 30k GBP would be more realistic and the car could easily sell for more with a fair wind behind it. If the car in question fails to attain the heady expectations of the high estimate it will be seen as some sort of failure, and that's bad for everyone.

As is so often the case in the world of the S30-series Z cars, I think the auction house simply doesn't know what it is talking about.

As far as if it fails to sell - well that's someone else's loss and the current owners gain. He will gain if it sells too. His worth - as much as the car's
The "estimate" is from an expert in the market that has years of experience and he admitted it was difficult to put a price on BECAUSE it's so unusual a find.
Car stored for 30years and identity almost forgotten then call it a barn find, call it whatever you want,but it's a pre-Big Sam car, so not commissioned based on that story.
It's chassis number within a few hundred of FFA196L iirc.

I think before you disrespect the chef and argue over the recipe you should at least look at the food, never mind actually taste it

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[Albrecht]

Oh and you have to factor in with the price of GoodWood race cars the parts/man hours to maintain - JD Classics paid nearly £100000 for big Sam in 2010 i believe? 40-50k restoration maybe? So if they were selling today they'd ask 200,000-250,000? Or maybe not.

Again, you're citing Big Sam as a reference for the car in question. I don't see that there's any direct - or even indirect - comparison. They are singularly different cars with different situations.

ExNissan works driver Tony Walker has an 80's 240zx that Nissan gave him when he left their employment that's easily 250k. The price of these early Zed's is increasing anyway - and the special few even more so.

"80's 240zx"? I think you're referring to a BS110 Nissan 240RS, and 250k GBP is waaaay past what the best of them change hands for currently. And even that is a can 'o worms best not opened... Suffice to say that rices of BS110 240RSs have little or nothing to do with HS30 Datsun 240Zs, which were produced in exponentially higher quantities and have an exponentially higher survival rate.

The CA numbers are Competition Accessories - more than likely from Andrew Cronk garage where the car was originally purchased from in Reigate.
Jack's father, obviously caring that his son isn't likely to kill himself, and coming from a wealthy family, would have had no problem funding the best possible for Jack.

Sorry but, "CA numbers"? "Competition Accessories"? That's a new one on me...

Nissan sold competition related (race & rally) parts via their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan (later worldwide). The proper Works cars used some of these parts, but in most instances they used modified versions or versions that were several steps different than the over-the-counter parts, as well as parts that were purely Works-only (and which were not sold to the general public or privateers). There was nobody in the UK supplying these parts to the general public in the UK in any organised way in the period that you are claiming for this car, and there was no mechanism in the UK for privateers to get hold of pure Works parts and fit them to their car in 1971/2/3, except used parts via the back door of O.W.S.S.

So what are these parts you are referring to? What do they look like, where are they on the car, and what are their "CA numbers"...?

 

[jaydeescuba]

Again, you're citing Big Sam as a reference for the car in question. I don't see that there's any direct - or even indirect - comparison. They are singularly different cars with different situations.



"80's 240zx"? I think you're referring to a BS110 Nissan 240RS, and 250k GBP is waaaay past what the best of them change hands for currently. And even that is a can 'o worms best not opened... Suffice to say that rices of BS110 240RSs have little or nothing to do with HS30 Datsun 240Zs, which were produced in exponentially higher quantities and have an exponentially higher survival rate.



Sorry but, "CA numbers"? "Competition Accessories"? That's a new one on me...

Nissan sold competition related (race & rally) parts via their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan (later worldwide). The proper Works cars used some of these parts, but in most instances they used modified versions or versions that were several steps different than the over-the-counter parts, as well as parts that were purely Works-only (and which were not sold to the general public or privateers). There was nobody in the UK supplying these parts to the general public in the UK in any organised way in the period that you are claiming for this car, and there was no mechanism in the UK for privateers to get hold of pure Works parts and fit them to their car in 1971/2/3, except used parts via the back door of O.W.S.S.

So what are these parts you are referring to? What do they look like, where are they on the car, and what are their "CA numbers"...?

Will have to come back to this as I'm not at the workshop. Got a life too

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[MikeB]

Well atleast it being found in Scotland is a nice change from the norm of finding interesting competition cars in a bog in Ireland.

Out of interest, where and when was it sprinted, as I have some good contacts who might have some data on the car from in period?

 

[Albrecht]

As far as if it fails to sell - well that's someone else's loss and the current owners gain. He will gain if it sells too. His worth - as much as the car's
The "estimate" is from an expert in the market that has years of experience and he admitted it was difficult to put a price on BECAUSE it's so unusual a find.

My personal opinion is that the auction 'estimate' is ludicrously high. I don't see any recent precedent for a similar car attaining such a price in the UK market, so I don't see how the auction house could come up with it other than by comparing like with not like...

Car stored for 30years and identity almost forgotten then call it a barn find, call it whatever you want,but it's a pre-Big Sam car, so not commissioned based on that story.
It's chassis number within a few hundred of FFA196L iirc.

Again, mention of 'Big Sam' and 'FFA' as though they are relevant reference points for a car that has very little in common with them. The car(s) that became known as 'Big Sam' (long story) were around for quite a while before Spike Anderson and Bob Gathercole took charge of them, so "pre-Big Sam" is perhaps a little beside the point here. Chassis number bingo can be fun, but I don't think having a chassis number "within a few hundred of FFA 196L" is going to command a premium when they both started out as standard, showroom stock road cars...

I think before you disrespect the chef and argue over the recipe you should at least look at the food, never mind actually taste it

I'm merely reacting to the hyperbole surrounding the car and its sale. No disrespect to the chef (Nissan, Spike Anderson and whoever else) but I usually find that rather overcooked sales blurbs are best served with a little extra seasoning, and in particular a few extra pinches of salt. The cars themselves are often the innocent parties in all this, and its the chefs involved - usually too many of them - who are to blame.

Tip o' the hat from me to you for volunteering to stick up for the car in question, but the immodest and somewhat overheated sale estimate is setting the tone for the conversation. We would probably not be talking about the car if it had a more realistic estimate. Sorry, but some of what you are claiming for the car (I'm sure in good faith) like Works style "chassis reinforcement" and FFA-like Tokico suspension is frankly third hand nonsense which doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. That too would not matter so much had it not been cited as part justification for the absurdly high estimate, but seeing as it is being pointed at it seems only right to let a little sunshine in on the 'Samuri' *magic*...

 

[Albrecht]

Will have to come back to this as I'm not at the workshop. Got a life too

Unlike me, who hasn't.

 

[jaydeescuba]

Unlike me, who hasn't.

That wasn't a dig btw lol
Son needs taking to work, dog's need walking and I need loving lmfao
Still, 2 out of 3 ain't bad


Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[jaydeescuba]

My personal opinion is that the auction 'estimate' is ludicrously high. I don't see any recent precedent for a similar car attaining such a price in the UK market, so I don't see how the auction house could come up with it other than by comparing like with not like...



Again, mention of 'Big Sam' and 'FFA' as though they are relevant reference points for a car that has very little in common with them. The car(s) that became known as 'Big Sam' (long story) were around for quite a while before Spike Anderson and Bob Gathercole took charge of them, so "pre-Big Sam" is perhaps a little beside the point here. Chassis number bingo can be fun, but I don't think having a chassis number "within a few hundred of FFA 196L" is going to command a premium when they both started out as standard, showroom stock road cars...



I'm merely reacting to the hyperbole surrounding the car and its sale. No disrespect to the chef (Nissan, Spike Anderson and whoever else) but I usually find that rather overcooked sales blurbs are best served with a little extra seasoning, and in particular a few extra pinches of salt. The cars themselves are often the innocent parties in all this, and its the chefs involved - usually too many of them - who are to blame.

Tip o' the hat from me to you for volunteering to stick up for the car in question, but the immodest and somewhat overheated sale estimate is setting the tone for the conversation. We would probably not be talking about the car if it had a more realistic estimate. Sorry, but some of what you are claiming for the car (I'm sure in good faith) like Works style "chassis reinforcement" and FFA-like Tokico suspension is frankly third hand nonsense which doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. That too would not matter so much had it not been cited as part justification for the absurdly high estimate, but seeing as it is being pointed at it seems only right to let a little sunshine in on the 'Samuri' *magic*...

Which kinda brings me back to asking which car CAN it be compared to?

It has the Tokico illuminas as the cost of refurbishing the koni struts was weighed and found wanting I think. They might still be rebuilt yet tho.

As far as the chassis strengthening goes, paul (current chef I guess)worked for a datsun/Nissan garage in the 80's and recognised the CA......@#$/& numbers with the oem stamp. I have an image or 2 but not available atm.
I have quite a few of the car overall from the beginning on ebay, the previous owner, who is an amazing woman btw
The only period I'm still searching for pics/pieces from is actual meets with Jack Phare.



Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk