Rear wheel toe in (on one side)

[Paul_S]

My off side rear wheel has a significant amount of toe in. I've not measured it but it looks a long way out compared to the other one which looks parallel to the car to the naked eye. It's probably an inch more inward at the front compared to the rear.

I appreciate there is no adjustment on the rear suspension but I've been reading the FSM and it seems there is a procedure to follow when you reassemble the rear suspension - e.g. you need to put the car's weight on the rear wheels before you tighten up the transverse inner link bolts, etc.

A previous owner fitted poly bushes to the rear suspension and when I got the car the diff and the front supporting bar was not bolted to the car. I just bolted it back together without a thought, but thinking back I did need to put some pressure on the suspension to make it line up before the bush would fit in place.

I don't know if perhaps something has not been aligned properly before, or if the act of the car being dragged onto a trailer with the rear wheels not properly supported might have bent something out of shape.

I hope to investigate this weekend (weather permitting) but does anyone know if incorrectly fitted bushes, etc. could make such a difference to the alignment? I'm concerned I might need some new bits, and that I'll only really know once the car is dismantled on the driveway!

 

[jonbills]

That doesn’t sound good!
I don’t know if it could make that much difference, but worth checking if you have camber adjusting bushes on the rear arm inner bushes. They have adjustment for toe as well as camber.
http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/23-4171

If not that, then I guess you could take both rear arms off and compare them or swap them over even.

I think I’d start with checking the alignment of all 4 wheels, not impossible that body repairs just make it look like they’re toeing in.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Yes, as Jon advised it would be best to check the alignment. Perhaps just rig-up a homemade device which touches the wheel rims and extends forward. One inch toe-in suggests something major is wrong so have a good look at the inner mountings.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

has it got all the bushings in?

 

[Paul_S]

Thanks for your replies everyone

I've not had a chance to investigate yet but I hope to spend some time on it tomorrow and will report back.

 

[johnymd]

Are you looking at the wheel in relation to the bodywork or the rear wheel in relation to the front? The body could easily be off by this amount if it’s had arches. Eye up the face of the rear wheel to the front and you should pretty accurately get an idea of the toe in of each wheel. 1” across the wheel face is massive and any damage that courses this would be very obvious.

 

[Paul_S]

OK, here are a few pics. I lined the car up as best I could alone the join on my interlocking floor tiles.

Here's a couple of pics along the side of the car:

From this angle above and slightly in front of the wheel it looks most obvious (see the yellow line I drew on the photo which it should be parallel to):

There is no obvious damage anywhere to the suspension or repairs to the bodywork. I will get my tape measure out on both sides and see where the discrepancy is. The other side looks pretty much bang on from the naked eye.

I obviously want to get this sorted, but in the mean time do you think it would cause an MOT failure?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

can you jack the car up at the rear? is the bearing knackered in the hub? have you tried feeling for free play?

 

[Paul_S]

can you jack the car up at the rear? is the bearing knackered in the hub? have you tried feeling for free play?

That's a good shout, but it seems to be OK.

I've got the rear of the car on axle stands and the wheels off now. Measuring from the centre of the hub to the wheel arch (and inner arch) shows that hub being 1.5cm further forward than the other. But everything else I measured (around the suspension) seems OK so far - which confuses me. I'm not sure what else I can measure!

I've loosened the drive shaft and it's not seized at all (it extends and shortens smoothly) and I've just started to slacken off the some of the bolts around the transverse arm to see if I can pull the hub into the correct position.

I'm reluctant to take too much apart right now because I need to get the car back into the garage tonight.

 

[johnymd]

That does look a long way out although I have recently sent a lot worse and it was down to the bottom cast section of the strut twisting after a heavy impact. This lower section of the strut looks really strong and I would not have believed it could twist if I hadn't seen it myself. I'm guessing that's where your problem lies and can easily be fixed with a replacement strut.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

That's a good shout, but it seems to be OK.

I've got the rear of the car on axle stands and the wheels off now. Measuring from the centre of the hub to the wheel arch (and inner arch) shows that hub being 1.5cm further forward than the other. But everything else I measured (around the suspension) seems OK so far - which confuses me. I'm not sure what else I can measure!

I've loosened the drive shaft and it's not seized at all (it extends and shortens smoothly) and I've just started to slacken off the some of the bolts around the transverse arm to see if I can pull the hub into the correct position.

I'm reluctant to take too much apart right now because I need to get the car back into the garage tonight.

Any bearing play? are the rear bushings ovaled? have you measured the lower rear arms from pin to pin, comparing the measurements?

 

[Paul_S]

All good advice, thanks

That does look a long way out although I have recently sent a lot worse and it was down to the bottom cast section of the strut twisting after a heavy impact. This lower section of the strut looks really strong and I would not have believed it could twist if I hadn't seen it myself. I'm guessing that's where your problem lies and can easily be fixed with a replacement strut.

I will look into that. Do you mean the cast part that holds the wheel bearing, etc? Or do you mean the lower arm itself? I suppose I could remove the lower arm and flip it and compare it to the other side (I realise that the arms are identical but just turned over from side to side).

Any bearing play? are the rear bushings ovaled? have you measured the lower rear arms from pin to pin, comparing the measurements?

There doesn't seem to be any play and from what I can tell so far (I've not stripped it down fully yet) the bushes seem in very good condition. I've not measured the lower arms because they didn't seem damaged and I assumed they were OK. That was probably a mistake.

Weather depending, I will take another look tomorrow.

In the mean time, here are a few pics. I wondered if there might be something amiss with the brackets that bolt onto the body which the rearmost part of the lower arms. I was thinking that if they were out of shape, or too far over to one side that might cause the issue.

 

[johnymd]

I am referring to the 2 cast ears that stick down from the cast section that holds the bearing. I've seen these twist rather than the arms bend after an impact to the wheel.

 

[Paul_S]

I am referring to the 2 cast ears that stick down from the cast section that holds the bearing. I've seen these twist rather than the arms bend after an impact to the wheel.

Thanks again. I will have a proper look when I get the chance (soon I hope) and report back.

 

[Paul_S]

So it's taken me a long time to get around to checking into this again. I took the control arm off to see if something it out of alignment on that.

What do you make of this?

In this pic it looks like the spindle pin is at a heck of angle (it doesn't look as bad in the flesh so perhaps it's an optical illusion?) - can anyone tell me if it's supposed to be like this? I'm not sure quite how to measure it.

Also, is the hole through the hub carrier doesn't look centred within the casting. Is this unusual?

Without stripping down the other side I've got nothing to compare it with so any comments are welcome

 

[jonbills]

There's a thread on classiczcars.com that says if the holes in the arm near the spindle pin bushes aren't round, then the arm is distorted.
https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/37713-rear-toe/

Time to go TTT shopping?
https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/240z/rear-lower-control-arms-datsun-240z-260z-280z

As John suggested earlier, your hub may be bent too - it would be worth trying to measure and compare the angles on your hubs.

 

[Paul_S]

There's a thread on classiczcars.com that says if the holes in the arm near the spindle pin bushes aren't round, then the arm is distorted.
https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/37713-rear-toe/

Time to go TTT shopping?
https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/240z/rear-lower-control-arms-datsun-240z-260z-280z

As John suggested earlier, your hub may be bent too - it would be worth trying to measure and compare the angles on your hubs.

Thanks for that. Interesting kit - a bit pricey but nice!

I hope I don't need to replace the hub because I've aftermarket coil overs and I'm not sure how to switch the strut into a different hub.

 

[Paul_S]

Without stripping anything any further at the moment I tried to take a pic of the cast ears. They look straight here, but I think I will need to strip it down more to get a better look.

I wonder if something like these camber and toe bushings might help. Has anyone experience of them?

 

[jonbills]

I have those rear arm bushings--
They work well enough but don't give a lot of adjustment, only a couple of deg. I'm not sure if they'd be enough for your prob.

Can you look at your hubs side by side? I had a similar prob on my mr2. Pretty obvious the hub is bent when looking at the the two sides next to each other:

 

[Paul_S]

Thanks for that. I was hoping those bushes might be an easy fix (even if a bit of a cheat). I'll investigate further...

I'm going to measure the control arm properly too. Given that the rear wheels should be at 0deg am I safe to assume all pins on the control arm should be parallel?