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Watanabes
- Thread starter vipergts
- Start date
Matt Long
Well-Known Forum User
There is nothing wrong with a cast aluminium wheel, 95% of cars run on them, forged Ali is stronger, yes but not really any lighter, Magnesium is 34% lighter than Ali and has a whole load of extra performance benefits, but they bend, I've had them on bikes, they bend. Great for a track car but a waste of money IMHO
Forged Wats or Rota's I'd go for the Rota and buy something else with the spare grand
Forged Wats or Rota's I'd go for the Rota and buy something else with the spare grand
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Incestuous is definitely the word, but - in my opinion anyway - it's usually the case that Mother Nature got there first when it comes to strength and beauty in the round.
I do think the Campagnolo 40802 / Hayashi 'Street Mag' plagiarism thing is stretching it a little bit though. If it works at all it only works in the narrower widths, as the Street looks quite, quite different in wider widths. My Rota/Atara/Watanabe point being that Hayashi never really marketed their wheels as cut-price Campags whilst the Rota 'Shakotan' pretty much pretends to be a Hayashi Street.
A lot of this is further complicated by the struggles that many Japanese wheel manufacturers have gone through over the years with boom and bust. Watanabe themselves have gone bust and revived themselves more times than I can count, and for a while the Watanabe designs were being made under the Black Racing 'BR' brand, and Enkei and Hayashi DNA also got into the mix. It's complicated.
The 'JWL' and 'VIA' testing/certification thing is also complicated. Rota's parent company has testing equipment that is accredited by JWL and VIA because they actually make wheels for some of the OEM manufacturers, but it's not necessarily the case that their individual aftermarket wheel designs (in individual sizes too, of course) have been tested to full JWL and VIA standard and have received JWL and VIA certification numbers. I believe there have been cases where the JWL and VIA testing logos have been used on certain wheels when those wheels have not been tested to the proper JWL and VIA standards.
As I alluded to earlier, ROTA have no official presence in the Japanese domestic market for aftermarket wheels. That fact speaks volumes....
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
That's what I did after coming to the same conclusion and not needing to save every kilo on the road.
Besides, for me, a track-day specific car would have wider and 3-piece split rims...which is just what I have being prepared now - be interesting to see the finished weight comparison.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Many thoughts can be 'deduced' from their lack of presence there....
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
I think you're missing a key point here. I mentioned it earlier. You will usually find that the chosen manufacturing process is a key part of the design. A wheel that is designed specifically to be forged from magnesium will differ in detail to one that was designed to be cast or forged in aluminium alloy. This means that a wheel designed to be made from magnesium can be both stronger and lighter than one made from aluminium alloy.
And of course a lot depends on the alloy concerned; We talk about magnesium and aluminium, but those terms cover a whole spectrum of specific alloys. 'Pure' magnesium is not a very practical material to use for auto wheels, and I believe you'll find that it is far more common and practical to use magnesium alloys such as those manufactured and supplied by Magnesium Elektron Ltd. I believe 'Elektron ZK60A' is one of the industry standard materials for forged magnesium auto wheels.
I've run forged magnesium (Elektron) wheels on road and track cars for years and never had a problem with them. It might be well to note that Nissan chose to use forged magnesium wheels on their works rally cars, too. Not something they would have chosen to do if they were 'weaker' or more easily bent than something less exotic.
Matt Long
Well-Known Forum User
I think you are assuming that the same wheel in a forged or magnesium material will have thinner cross sections to its cast counter part.
And ergo if someone is "copying" a magnesium wheel they are going to use those perceived thinner sections in a casting resulting in a weaker wheel
The choice of material is made due to mechanical and physical benefits, not its volume per unit.
Casting gives the possibility to add other compounds such as chrome, nickel and moly, which will change a castings mechanical attributes, reduces costs and give flexability to produce vairing grades of alloy.
Forging offers uniformity of composition and structure. Forging results in metallurgical re-crystalisation and grain refinement because of the thermal cycle and deformation process. This strengthens the resulting steel product particularly in terms of impact and shear strength.
So, forging is stronger, casting is cheaper, magnesium is a waste of money (unless your bidding for a world rally championship and it's money no object) obviously
It doesn't mean you can use less of it, it means it behaves differently
And ergo if someone is "copying" a magnesium wheel they are going to use those perceived thinner sections in a casting resulting in a weaker wheel
The choice of material is made due to mechanical and physical benefits, not its volume per unit.
Casting gives the possibility to add other compounds such as chrome, nickel and moly, which will change a castings mechanical attributes, reduces costs and give flexability to produce vairing grades of alloy.
Forging offers uniformity of composition and structure. Forging results in metallurgical re-crystalisation and grain refinement because of the thermal cycle and deformation process. This strengthens the resulting steel product particularly in terms of impact and shear strength.
So, forging is stronger, casting is cheaper, magnesium is a waste of money (unless your bidding for a world rally championship and it's money no object) obviously
It doesn't mean you can use less of it, it means it behaves differently
Matt Long
Well-Known Forum User
Even then I'd spend it on brakes and suspension, tracks are about corners not power
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
No....for once we disagree, tracks are about straight-line speed, brakes allow you to keep up that speed for longer and handling allows you to keep that speed through the bends and corners and getting on the power earlier for the next straight line.
During a track lesson I said the same as you and was squished in the class-room by the monitor.
I later won a 2nd place trophy....I listened.
Besides, brakes and suspension go hand in hand with upped power - those that compromise there had better have a full cage and extinguisher....but frequently don't !
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
I'm not sure if you haven't understood what I wrote, or if you just didn't read it. The point is that - when designing a wheel - the engineer will design specifically for the material and manufacturing process to be used. That means the designer of a wheel that will be made from forged magnesium will design specifically for that. Using the same design for a cast aluminium alloy technique and material will result in quite a different product in terms of strength and weight.
What companies like the cheaper Chinese manufacturers (see Atara's manufacturer, for example) sometimes do is take designs that have been properly designed structurally and then make them from less costly materials and by less costly methods. Wheels like this are made to a price, whilst the originals are usually made to a standard. Yes, they are talking designs that were originally forged in magnesium and they are casting them in aluminium.
Matt Long said:
The very same alloys used for casting can be used for forging. We are talking about the chemical content of the metal being used to make the wheel, unless you know of wheels that are cast with the alloy being made in the pot immediately before pouring...???
Matt Long said:
Is the above simply cut-and-pasted from a site dealing with steel products? It looks a little out of place in a discussion concerning aluminium and magnesium alloy wheels.
Matt Long
Well-Known Forum User
Which is why these Mustangs are creaming these mini's
https://youtu.be/nS4MIfA5i64
Explains why your F1 trophy cabinet is so empty
https://youtu.be/nS4MIfA5i64
Explains why your F1 trophy cabinet is so empty
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Err, didn't 'stangs take two podiums there ?
Maybe it should have rained.....
Maybe it should have rained.....
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
Jeeze you lot. You have the answer and one that is obvious and yet the discussion goes off track.... yes yes pardon the pun!
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
I think the answer to that particular exchange can be summed up by the quote "magnesium wheels are a waste of money". Especially when they are bendy ones.
I'm going for wooden spoked artillery wheels for my 2016 championship season of European track day domination. However, I'm still in talks with several blacksmiths with regard to tyre supplies.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Go Durex, avoid the ribbed ones and have slicks !
Matt Long
Well-Known Forum User
Have you any technical qualifications to back this drivel up.
Because I've got an HND in metallurgy.
>>wanders off shaking head<<
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Yes. But which particular bit of "drivel" would you like me to state my technical qualifications for?
Matt Long said:
I'll be interested to hear why are you writing about steel forging when the subject is non-ferrous alloys? Is it relevant?
Matt Long said:
When you've finished that, can you tell me if you have any personal experience in designing and/or manufacturing aluminium or magnesium wheels?
Another question: Have you personally compared examples of RS Watanabe, ROTA and Atara 8-spoke wheels?
Thanks.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
And can we have the title of the thread changed please ?
Wanatabes ?Is that a word-play on wanna-be....?
Wanatabes ?Is that a word-play on wanna-be....?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
If anyone is in any doubt as to the size, scale and dog-eat-dog nature of the knock-off of knock-off of 'replica' of knock-off, out the back door nature of the lookalikey aftermarket wheel manufacturing world, look here:
Crib of the Work TE37 (so a cast copy of a forged wheel, with the word 'FORGED' cast into the rim, LOL):
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...60100842621.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.H6O6vb
Cribs of the Watanabe 8-spokes:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...185133596.html?spm=a2700.7724838.38.77.H6O6vb
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...0174005836.html?spm=a2700.7724838.38.1.H6O6vb
The above wheels are made in the same moulds as are used to make the Atara Racing 'Pisang' (Malay for 'Banana') wheels, but they modified the 'AR' cast-in roundel to read 'BR' (a crib of the old Japanese 'Black Racing' brand's roundels). So they are pretty much knock-offs of knock-offs...
The biggest manufacturer of such wheels is based in the city of Quindao (aso known as Tsingtao, where the beer comes from) in Shangdong Province, China:
http://kaimaigroup.en.alibaba.com/
Crib of the Work TE37 (so a cast copy of a forged wheel, with the word 'FORGED' cast into the rim, LOL):
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...60100842621.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.H6O6vb
Cribs of the Watanabe 8-spokes:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...185133596.html?spm=a2700.7724838.38.77.H6O6vb
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...0174005836.html?spm=a2700.7724838.38.1.H6O6vb
The above wheels are made in the same moulds as are used to make the Atara Racing 'Pisang' (Malay for 'Banana') wheels, but they modified the 'AR' cast-in roundel to read 'BR' (a crib of the old Japanese 'Black Racing' brand's roundels). So they are pretty much knock-offs of knock-offs...
The biggest manufacturer of such wheels is based in the city of Quindao (aso known as Tsingtao, where the beer comes from) in Shangdong Province, China:
http://kaimaigroup.en.alibaba.com/