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  #16  
Old 18-12-2017, 08:28 PM
datsfun datsfun is offline
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Originally Posted by madda View Post

If you agree with me or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that other buyers out there will think the same.
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  #17  
Old 18-12-2017, 09:04 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Originally Posted by Woody928 View Post
I’ve got to say I completely agree with Franky, whilst this topic gets endlessly revisited I generally think that those who ‘bash’ the LHD cars are those who own and drive RHD cars.

I do get the impression some people want there to be this slight divide in terms of market value due to which side a steering wheel sits on. Still not sure why though….
In case you think I'm one of the people who "bash" LHD cars...

There's some amount of missing the point in the RHD vs LHD topic. For many years - and certainly more so since the dawn of social media - we have had to endure the somewhat 'USA Uber Alles' narrative with regard to these cars. For some, it cut us to the quick. We have been asked to believe that the USA market (not even the North American market...) was the leading factor in the concept, styling, design, engineering and production of the S30-series Z. They didn't even consider it a series. It was '240Z', and that was it. Anything else - especially RHD - was "an afterthought".

And yet the North American market cars were de-contented, softened up and watered down. Compare - for example - a 1971 USA market car with a 1971 European mainland car (let's say France, Belgium, Holland, Germany or - especially so - Portugal). They could almost be different models, and certainly had majorly different driving characteristics and dynamics. Nissan put a lot of effort into coming up with the right tweaks for the more sophisticated European market, so we should acknowledge that.

So it's not necessarily anti-LHD bias you are seeing, and very likely a bit more like a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to the cobblers we have been fed.

If you're going to modify your USA market car then all well and good, but don't tell me that they are equal in sporting essence and dynamics to the models given to the rest of the world. It becomes more so when you get to the RS30 and RLS30 models, and the HLS30 '280Z' model is another thing entirely...

THAT is what some of this is rooted in.

Full disclosure: I own a 4/70 production HLS30-U North American market model Datsun 240Z too.
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  #18  
Old 18-12-2017, 10:00 PM
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uk66fastback uk66fastback is offline
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I don't really care whether people drive RHD or LHD cars and I'm still trying to understand the history of this model - in all parts of the world. It well be buried on here in another thread Albrecht, but for the more green members and owners like me, WHY was the 'North American 240z' softer, watered down ... only came with a four-speed etc. I can't believe that it was as simple as Datsun thinking 'they all drive autos in the NA market anyway', so we'll chuck 'em a cheap manual box in as an afterthought ...

Forgive me if this so far from the truth to be unbelievable but while I know a few cars quite well, the S30 is not really one of them (yet).
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  #19  
Old 18-12-2017, 10:16 PM
franky franky is online now
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Originally Posted by uk66fastback View Post
I don't really care whether people drive RHD or LHD cars and I'm still trying to understand the history of this model - in all parts of the world. It well be buried on here in another thread Albrecht, but for the more green members and owners like me, WHY was the 'North American 240z' softer, watered down ... only came with a four-speed etc. I can't believe that it was as simple as Datsun thinking 'they all drive autos in the NA market anyway', so we'll chuck 'em a cheap manual box in as an afterthought ...

Forgive me if this so far from the truth to be unbelievable but while I know a few cars quite well, the S30 is not really one of them (yet).
There's lots of detail bits that add up to an overall 'softer' car. 97.6% are easy to sort. the other 2.40 aren't.

Its the Portuguese ones that have a perfect spec. They must be worth quite a bit more than any UK 240z.
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  #20  
Old 18-12-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by franky View Post
So it has sold between dealers? Just stating like with your samurai, some cars seem to take an age.
Off topic and no apologies for it either, but when you are discussing someone else's car in the 1st person Franco, at least have the common decency to spell it as it should be...
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  #21  
Old 18-12-2017, 10:48 PM
franky franky is online now
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Originally Posted by JK240 View Post
Off topic and no apologies for it either, but when you are discussing someone else's car in the 1st person Franco, at least have the common decency to spell it as it should be...
we were discussing cars being for sale for a long period(plethora of lhd cars on ebay), I used Robs car as an example of a well documented, good RHD car taking an age to sell, for no particular reason. No apologies needed?
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  #22  
Old 18-12-2017, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
In case you think I'm one of the people who "bash" LHD cars...

There's some amount of missing the point in the RHD vs LHD topic. For many years - and certainly more so since the dawn of social media - we have had to endure the somewhat 'USA Uber Alles' narrative with regard to these cars. For some, it cut us to the quick. We have been asked to believe that the USA market (not even the North American market...) was the leading factor in the concept, styling, design, engineering and production of the S30-series Z. They didn't even consider it a series. It was '240Z', and that was it. Anything else - especially RHD - was "an afterthought".

And yet the North American market cars were de-contented, softened up and watered down. Compare - for example - a 1971 USA market car with a 1971 European mainland car (let's say France, Belgium, Holland, Germany or - especially so - Portugal). They could almost be different models, and certainly had majorly different driving characteristics and dynamics. Nissan put a lot of effort into coming up with the right tweaks for the more sophisticated European market, so we should acknowledge that.

So it's not necessarily anti-LHD bias you are seeing, and very likely a bit more like a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to the cobblers we have been fed.

If you're going to modify your USA market car then all well and good, but don't tell me that they are equal in sporting essence and dynamics to the models given to the rest of the world. It becomes more so when you get to the RS30 and RLS30 models, and the HLS30 '280Z' model is another thing entirely...

THAT is what some of this is rooted in.

Full disclosure: I own a 4/70 production HLS30-U North American market model Datsun 240Z too.
Not at all, I can completely appreciate the difference in terms of spec based upon country/market of origin and acknowledge how that will also effect resale value.

Personally I'm modifying my car so that it goes away from 'US spec' by upgrading/swapping out the suspension, diff, gearbox and brakes to name a few. I'm hoping when finished the running gear will have moved far past the UK market spec cars in my humble opinion because I believe it will improve and enhance the driving experience for me. (I won't go into JDM market cars as I don't know about the differences).

While I acknowledge in simple terms comparing a stock US and UK car of a similar condition, spec wise the UK market car would be superior from a driving perspective and therefore command a premium. When simply looking at this debate from the point of view of which side of the car the steering wheel falls then I genuinely don't feel it hinders the sales of these cars in the UK market or the experience for that matter.

In the interest of honestly I own a LHD US market car which arguably makes me bias however I have driven both LHD and RHD and maintain for me the steering wheel didn't change the experience. I quite openly admit that with both cars being in a stock configuration the UK car was a far superior drive! (albeit was a 260Z which I'm sure carries further changes again)

At the end of the day I think the good cars sell regardless of market and steering wheel positioning. At the moment there are a lot of poor condition and overpriced LHD cars available on ebay which isn't reflective of the market on the whole imo. Just my 2p.
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  #23  
Old 18-12-2017, 11:33 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franky View Post
Its the Portuguese ones that have a perfect spec. They must be worth quite a bit more than any UK 240z.
Ah, but Porto cars are LHD....no good then.

Alan mentions LHD and then storms into the N/A market untermench versions but at least does mention the European cars which were obviously both R and L hd.

Someone also mentioned that this Z market over here isn't far away and potentially contains many, many more Z customers and more demand = more value.

I reckon the the statement in the Z's history most often misinterpreted is :

"The USA was the Zs' most important market."

Which comes down to personal interpretation of the word 'important' - what does it mean to you ?
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  #24  
Old 18-12-2017, 11:38 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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[QUOTE=Woody928;283729]Personally I'm modifying my car so that it goes away from 'US spec' by upgrading/swapping out the suspension, diff, gearbox and brakes to name a few.

I'm hoping when finished the running gear will have moved far past the UK market spec cars in my humble opinion because I believe it will improve and enhance the driving experience for me. (I won't go into JDM market cars as I don't know about the differences).
/QUOTE]

Exactly, most UK market cars have been modified, perhaps it's less os a culture-crime to mod a LHD import up to and beyond stock Euro specs ?

So the 'argument' against a LHD import for being soft is less relevant in the reality on the roads/tracks here in Europe. Ask MZR, Fourways, Samuri, DJR and just about anyone else who's 'knocked-out' several cars.
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  #25  
Old 19-12-2017, 01:13 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody928 View Post
While I acknowledge in simple terms comparing a stock US and UK car of a similar condition, spec wise the UK market car would be superior from a driving perspective and therefore command a premium. When simply looking at this debate from the point of view of which side of the car the steering wheel falls then I genuinely don't feel it hinders the sales of these cars in the UK market or the experience for that matter.
Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias. Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.

I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.

A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands? The Japanese market has no particular anti-LHD bias, with many, many LHD cars from major manufacturers on their roads. Parallel imports have been a big factor in Japan since the late 1970s, and they even have toll booths, parking machines and drive-throughs specially adapted to cope. And yet LHD S30s are not that sought after in Japan and fetch far less than their original RHD counterparts. They are seen as something lesser, possibly because they are perceived as being compromised. Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
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  #26  
Old 19-12-2017, 04:57 AM
SacCyclone SacCyclone is offline
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I wonder too if the Japanese government does not require extensive modifications to LHD US cars to meet pollution standards or other standards common to that part of the world.

I only make this point because I know that many of the Japanese market engines with very low miles make their way to the states because they no longer meet pollution requirements.

Maybe this does not apply to older S30 models but I can't help but think that government regulations have something to do with the lack of imports from the states to Japan.
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  #27  
Old 19-12-2017, 07:58 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias.
Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
I don't believe so Alan - most of these USA imports will be modified to some extent if not party to some 'reshelling' so I honestly don't believe that they are maligned for being 'lesser' cars - all the better in fact as that ought to insure that they're cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
As do, generally speaking, UK buyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.
Needs repeating each time Alan - I do when the opportunity rises and most owners 'feel' it when they drive their 'new' import here...most think it's just a question of switching from 4 to 5spd !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.
No argument - they are !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands?
Had a reminder of that whilst speaking with a chap in NZ - his Japanese collegues are very interested in his stock 240Z. So why aren't the Japanese exporting from the UK ?

Ultimately, some LHD cars do make it into Japan though and although I doubt that there are many 'reshells' due to the lack of donor cars (?), it must happen....just not openly and bragged about.
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  #28  
Old 19-12-2017, 09:33 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Originally Posted by SacCyclone View Post
I wonder too if the Japanese government does not require extensive modifications to LHD US cars to meet pollution standards or other standards common to that part of the world.

I only make this point because I know that many of the Japanese market engines with very low miles make their way to the states because they no longer meet pollution requirements.

Maybe this does not apply to older S30 models but I can't help but think that government regulations have something to do with the lack of imports from the states to Japan.
No, you're barking up the wrong tree. Old cars imported to Japan only need to meet the period standards on testing, so any re-imported S30-series Z would only need to match its contemporary Japanese market counterpart. There's nothing to stop them doing that in theory as their emissions and safety specs were easily good enough, but the poor standards of drivetrain maintenance on most used US cars can be an obstacle. I have personal experience of this in Japan.

The low mile used engines you see coming from Japan are partly the result of Japanese owners scrapping cars because they quickly fall into negative equity. In Japan cars are 'written off'/scrapped much sooner than elsewhere in the world because of simple economics. It is often far cheaper and easier to buy a new car than it is to keep a ten year old car running legally. Unless a car is particularly valued as a niche model or a rarity, nobody will bother saving it. Some of these cars hit the massive auctions for export, but many are parted out to be sold as valuable spares. The export market for low-mile used engines and other parts (including 'half cuts') tends to drive the economics of the scrappage, so it becomes a self-supporting phenomenon.

There are no government regulations that specifically block or hinder importation of used cars into Japan.
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  #29  
Old 19-12-2017, 09:42 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
I don't believe so Alan - most of these USA imports will be modified to some extent if not party to some 'reshelling' so I honestly don't believe that they are maligned for being 'lesser' cars - all the better in fact as that ought to insure that they're cheaper.
You too are missing the point I was making. I'm not talking about what turns up or what people will do with them. That's a moot point. I was answering this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody928
I’ve got to say I completely agree with Franky, whilst this topic gets endlessly revisited I generally think that those who ‘bash’ the LHD cars are those who own and drive RHD cars.

I do get the impression some people want there to be this slight divide in terms of market value due to which side a steering wheel sits on. Still not sure why though….
...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.
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  #30  
Old 19-12-2017, 10:48 AM
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chrisvega chrisvega is offline
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I believe Albrecht is crediting the average potential Z (S30 ) buyer with having much more knowledge/information than they mostly possess.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that many buyers are not aware of any differences between US spec. cars and UK or RHD cars aside from the steering wheel being on a different side. The average buyer has no idea about JDM spec. cars either. You need to be careful in not expecting the average buyer to have your encyclopaedic level of knowledge as in reality it is far far from it.

LHD cars in the UK will always be less desirable and cheaper in the UK market for obvious reasons regardless of origin. I had a Euro spec. LHD car that failed to achieve a higher selling price than a similar US spec. car would have made and I can only assume this was because the market/buyers were not educated enough to know or care about any differences beyond which side the steering wheel sat.

Let's get this thread back on track though. There is an important place for US imports of decent quality at the cheaper end of the market. Let's say you only have £10-15k to spend and want an S30. You will not find a RHD car worth having in this price range and if you do manage to find one (highly unlikely) it will need major expenditure to get roadworthy. However, you can buy a very nice 280Z ready to drive away on the button in this range and you will also find genuine rust free 240/260Z cars in need of cosmetic restoration rather than structural. Give me one of those anyday over a rusty patchwork quilt wreck of a UK car at the same price.

Last edited by chrisvega; 19-12-2017 at 10:59 AM..
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