No username? Register here.
Go Back   ZClub.net > Trade > Classifieds discussion
Click here to advertise with the ZClub

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 19-12-2017, 10:58 AM
uk66fastback's Avatar
uk66fastback uk66fastback is offline
Z Club member
Fourth gear
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 1,397
Member 1052
I'll be honest here and say that while I knew there were some differences between the spec of a US car and a UK car besides the wheel being on the wrong side, at the time I probably didn't care as long as I was buying a manual - yes four-speed, I know ... people can bang on about the subtle differences, softer suspension, ARBs etc, but it's a Z, it's here and it's mine and I love it - and at my basic level of knowledge of S30s, for now, that's enough!

For me the ownership experience is enough, I'm too long in the tooth and too knackered by previous mods and work on other cars to care much any more whether I have the 3.54* final drive or something else ...

*might not be that ratio but you get the idea
__________________

Mike
1972 240Z US LHD ...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 19-12-2017, 11:05 AM
SeanDezart's Avatar
SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
Z Club member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Pouzauges 85700 France
Posts: 18,908
Member 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Old cars imported to Japan only need to meet the period standards on testing, so any re-imported S30-series Z would only need to match its contemporary Japanese market counterpart.
That's sensible ! Here, all post '72 cars are tested as if modern....!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
You too are missing the point I was making. I'm not talking about what turns up or what people will do with them. That's a moot point. I was answering (Woody) : I do get the impression some people want there to be this slight divide in terms of market value due to which side a steering wheel sits on. Still not sure why though….

...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.
No, I’m not missing the point – I think you are though  !

I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !

Surely the decades of propaganda and misinformation (made for the USA, conceived in the USA, USA most important market etc, etc would convince people to buy said cars perceived to be in some way superior to those sold into Europe – a marginal market ?

You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisvega View Post
I believe Albrecht is crediting the average potential Z (S30 ) buyer with having much more knowledge/information than they mostly possess.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that many buyers are not aware of any differences between US spec. cars and UK or RHD cars aside from the steering wheel being on a different side.

Let's get this thread back on track though. There is an important place for US imports of decent quality at the cheaper end of the market. Let's say you only have £10-15k to spend and want an S30. Give me one of those anyday over a rusty patchwork quilt wreck of a UK car at the same price.
Yep and another reason why people buy the USA imports and then start asking how to upgrade.

For rusty patchwork quilt UK cars please read European cars (2x sold here for €3500 each in the past fortnight).

Then again : https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/13...15.htm?ca=12_s
__________________
A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 19-12-2017, 11:32 AM
franky franky is online now
Z Club member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: usually work
Posts: 3,395
Member 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
That's sensible ! Here, all post '72 cars are tested as if modern....!



No, I’m not missing the point – I think you are though  !

I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !

Surely the decades of propaganda and misinformation (made for the USA, conceived in the USA, USA most important market etc, etc would convince people to buy said cars perceived to be in some way superior to those sold into Europe – a marginal market ?

You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.



Yep and another reason why people buy the USA imports and then start asking how to upgrade.

For rusty patchwork quilt UK cars please read European cars (2x sold here for €3500 each in the past fortnight).

Then again : https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/13...15.htm?ca=12_s
The fact of the matter is that the Americans are starting to value their cars, so good early s30's are getting expensive before you even bring them across. That will only push up rhd prices further.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 19-12-2017, 12:02 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
Website member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Up a ladder...
Posts: 3,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.
Well, as chrisvega has alluded to, I wouldn't place too much stock in your average civilian knowing anything much at all about these cars. We are still at a situation where even owners and self-avowed enthusiasts think the term '240Z' means just one thing, and that they were made by a company called 'Datsun'.

That's the point. People like me (or maybe it's just me...?) have been trying to point out some fairly fundamental differences in nature across the different market models, largely because it has been so badly reported on up to now. Look at any of the magazine articles and press/web media reporting on the '69 through '73 cars over the last 20 years and you'll see mistakes, misconceptions and plain bad data repeated over and over again and often with a good dose of USA-market bias running through it. Pointing out such mistakes is not 'LHD bashing'.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 19-12-2017, 12:46 PM
Woody928's Avatar
Woody928 Woody928 is offline
Z Club member
Third gear
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Surrey
Posts: 465
Member 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias. Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.

I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.

A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands? The Japanese market has no particular anti-LHD bias, with many, many LHD cars from major manufacturers on their roads. Parallel imports have been a big factor in Japan since the late 1970s, and they even have toll booths, parking machines and drive-throughs specially adapted to cope. And yet LHD S30s are not that sought after in Japan and fetch far less than their original RHD counterparts. They are seen as something lesser, possibly because they are perceived as being compromised. Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
I actually agree with what you’re saying, I’m sure that generally this is an anti-North American spec bias rather than a LHD, RHD debate. It would probably help if it was discussed that way as the two seem to commonly be mixed up imo. Topic titles such as this only add fuel to the fire and add further confusion.

In the greater scheme of things I believe a stock US car would and should be worth less than a stock UK, EU or JDM car on the basis of its specification and importantly not due to the position of its steering wheel. I think JDM cars will always command a premium as they are the home market cars which are viewed as the Halo cars with the best usually being reserved only for the Japanese market. I openly admit I would have loved a JDM market car if my budget could have afforded it.

I’m quite happy to admit I’d modifying my US spec car as I want to move away from that lower spec to make my car the one I would have liked when it left the factory.

Thanks for the insight, every day is a school day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.
Actually no, you’re one of the people on here who I feel I can have a balanced and informative debate with.
__________________
1971 Datsun 240z - L26 - 918 Orange
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 19-12-2017, 12:59 PM
Woody928's Avatar
Woody928 Woody928 is offline
Z Club member
Third gear
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Surrey
Posts: 465
Member 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !
Correct
__________________
1971 Datsun 240z - L26 - 918 Orange
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 19-12-2017, 02:56 PM
uk66fastback's Avatar
uk66fastback uk66fastback is offline
Z Club member
Fourth gear
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 1,397
Member 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody928 View Post
I’m quite happy to admit I’d modifying my US spec car as I want to move away from that lower spec to make my car the one I would have liked when it left the factory.
When it left the factory though that was the spec (the one you want to change) not the spec as it might have been when viewed from the comfort and gizmo-laden heights of 2017!

Mine left the factory in 1972 as a car bound for the US and a US-specced car is what I want to drive in 2017 in the UK - complete with soft suspension, the 'wrong' gearbox etc and whatever else is considered sub-standard.

Amazes me that with such a **** spec they sold so many in the US! And with the fantastic UK spec, they sold so few!

__________________

Mike
1972 240Z US LHD ...
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 19-12-2017, 03:58 PM
JK240's Avatar
JK240 JK240 is online now
Z Club member
Fifth gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kendal, The Lake District
Posts: 1,760
Member 472
Japanese spec car RHD

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...z-240z/8119042
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 19-12-2017, 04:54 PM
SeanDezart's Avatar
SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
Z Club member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Pouzauges 85700 France
Posts: 18,908
Member 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody928 View Post
I actually agree with what you’re saying, I’m sure that generally this is an anti-North American spec bias rather than a LHD, RHD debate. It would probably help if it was discussed that way as the two seem to commonly be mixed up imo.

In the greater scheme of things I believe a stock US car would and should be worth less than a stock UK, EU or JDM car on the basis of its specification and importantly not due to the position of its steering wheel. I think JDM cars will always command a premium as they are the home market cars which are viewed as the Halo cars with the best usually being reserved only for the Japanese market.
No, I believe it to be a LHD vs. RHD debate BUT.....is purely USA LHD because who, in theiright minds would import an (expensive, relatively compared to the market choice in the USA) rusty European LHD into the UK ? Defeats the point doesn't it ?

Agreed with the rest 'cept not all of the JDM cars are 'most desirable' unless you're a JDM and/or OEM freak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Well, as chrisvega has alluded to, I wouldn't place too much stock in your average civilian knowing anything much at all about these cars. We are still at a situation where even owners and self-avowed enthusiasts think the term '240Z' means just one thing, and that they were made by a company called 'Datsun'.

That's the point. People like me (or maybe it's just me...?) have been trying to point out some fairly fundamental differences in nature across the different market models, largely because it has been so badly reported on up to now. Look at any of the magazine articles and press/web media reporting on the '69 through '73 cars over the last 20 years and you'll see mistakes, misconceptions and plain bad data repeated over and over again and often with a good dose of USA-market bias running through it. Pointing out such mistakes is not 'LHD bashing'.
No, it is not LHD bashing and if anyone claimed it so against you, I would defend you fervently Alan 'cos the reporting, aided substantially by a 'loaded' English speaking press (books included) and since by the social medias has been at best poorly researched and at worst simply awful....!

What the situation needs Alan, and this has been oft repeated, is a much more detailed English-language book on the S30 from germ in someones' head, through conception design, evolution to production and commercialisation. The cherry on the top would be a more JDM slanted look at the cars' competition history and results.

THAT, would be the ultimate 'get-back' at the usual USA-slanted reporting !

People (if they even bother to read these days) read what is easily available - go on ebay and amazon and look for 'Z-books' - what do you find ? They need something better - the car deserves something better.

You might not think so Alan, but you HAVE impressed and converted many, many people and influenced the description of the cars.

Not sure ? Up until 5-8 years agao, how many people mentionned S30s ? No, they were 240Zs and 260Zs and oh yes, wasn't there an Amercial 260Z with a ZX engine ?

Describing them as S30s was a massive step towards seeing the cars as a family and not one car with some offshoots and even that one car was 'merely' an export.

Whilst we're here, just how many export versions were there please ?

USA/Canada
USA California
Cont Europe
Portugal
UK
SA/Aus/NZ (?)
Others ?

Then the 4/5speed and automatic versions...

Nearly as many as the JDM variants ?
__________________
A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 19-12-2017, 06:39 PM
SeanDezart's Avatar
SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
Z Club member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Pouzauges 85700 France
Posts: 18,908
Member 559
Japan - USA.
USA-Lithuania + upgrade 'n restoration
Lithuanie - UK
Uk - France

http://www.datsun-france.com/forum/f...ny?view=stream

Better condition-wise than a European LHD car......better (in condition) than a UK market RHD car ?
__________________
A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 19-12-2017, 11:32 PM
SeanDezart's Avatar
SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
Z Club member
Sixth gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Pouzauges 85700 France
Posts: 18,908
Member 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK240 View Post
Clean, early LHD car :

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C943450 (well, err, drop the rear spoiler).
__________________
A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 20-12-2017, 04:42 PM
Woody928's Avatar
Woody928 Woody928 is offline
Z Club member
Third gear
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Surrey
Posts: 465
Member 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by uk66fastback View Post
When it left the factory though that was the spec (the one you want to change) not the spec as it might have been when viewed from the comfort and gizmo-laden heights of 2017!

Mine left the factory in 1972 as a car bound for the US and a US-specced car is what I want to drive in 2017 in the UK - complete with soft suspension, the 'wrong' gearbox etc and whatever else is considered sub-standard.

Amazes me that with such a **** spec they sold so many in the US! And with the fantastic UK spec, they sold so few!

Haha yes it’s very easy to look at its short comings with today’s technology and manufacturing techniques. For the record I find it immensely fun to drive in its current spec, that being said I’m very much a fan of the concept of ‘resto mod’ cars and when looking at it from a pure driving experience know I could immensely improve my experience with a few tweaks. I still keep the original character primarily through aesthetics and the engine amongst other bits but improve its driving capabilities immeasurably compared to where it is today with its old outdated setup because that’s what I want. I’m building this car for me and not anyone else at the end of the day.

I applaud the fact that what you wish to own and maintain yours in its factory spec and am sure financially it will make a better investment opportunity in the long term. That said for me it’s gets out there and using the hell of it the way I’d like to. Certainly a case of each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
No, I believe it to be a LHD vs. RHD debate BUT.....is purely USA LHD because who, in their right minds would import an (expensive, relatively compared to the market choice in the USA) rusty European LHD into the UK ? Defeats the point doesn't it ?

Agreed with the rest 'cept not all of the JDM cars are 'most desirable' unless you're a JDM and/or OEM freak.
Very true, this is half this issue with this ongoing debate as I’m sure there are those who are purely looking at it from the point of view of which side the steering wheel sits on while there are others who have a more involved approach and wish to consider the differing market specs as well. Two debates going on in one conversation with no clear parameters as to who’s arguing what in the vast majority of cases. I doubt we’ll ever really get to the bottom of the debate considering the way the conversation usually goes with the exception of some very good and concise points that get correctly highlighted.

Regardless of the above its almost impossible to fairly compare two cars given their age now, it’s very difficult to find standard cars that fit their stereotypes that haven’t been modified in some way.
__________________
1971 Datsun 240z - L26 - 918 Orange
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:33 AM.

The Future Is Bright... The Future Is ZClub!

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © ZClub.net, All Rights Reserved.