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  #31  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:48 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr_Tenno View Post
I think that's where it gets very tricky. From a legal perspective I imagine anything that's beyond a medium level of rust or accident repair would need an inspection where you'd have to let the DVLA decide what counted as worthy of the original VIN.

From a moral perspective, I'd say it's down to the 'average person' check - if you got a random person off the street to look at the parts that are left from the original shell, would they still consider it a car? If it's just a bulkhead and a couple of pillars.. probably not.
The concept of 'Continuous History' comes into play. I don't have a problem with it. We have to be pragmatic. Same thing happens with listed buildings and Supermarine Spitfires.

What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.

As a general rule, if it's done with the aim of deceit then it's a no-no.
  #32  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
And your definition of 'correct' is ?
For me, the correct VIN on a shell is the one that corresponds to a significantly large % (at the very least more than half) of the metal of the shell including the bulkhead.
  #33  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:58 PM
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richiep richiep is offline
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Sean, he's referring to a LHD car on its original VIN, that has been converted. RHD converting is not changing its original identity. Identity swapping in legal terms is focussed primarily on taking the VIN from one car and putting it in another. Unless radical modifications have occurred that infringe the 8-point rule. I'd argue (and it may be in the clubs interest to argue if asked) that a Z RHD swap doesn't infringe that as the original bulkhead doesn't experience radical chopping about, which is what upsets the DVLA. Most changes are moving spot welded bits and welding up holes. Moving the steering to RHD MIGHT lose 2 points under the system, but that also may be arguable because usually people use factory original column/rack etc.

Quite frankly, given the direction the DVLA are going and the MOT changes next year, this kind of conversation being held on an open forum is unwise. Classic car owners face enough potential risk from DVLA interference depending on how they implement their new plans without discussions such as this shining a spotlight on a particular marque.
  #34  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
The concept of 'Continuous History' comes into play. I don't have a problem with it. We have to be pragmatic. Same thing happens with listed buildings and Supermarine Spitfires.

What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.

As a general rule, if it's done with the aim of deceit then it's a no-no.
I agree, very murky -

If it's a patchwork of panels all repaired over time: It's an original car with history.

If it's getting the best part of 50% new steel from a donor car in one go or a new bulkhead: It probably needs a DVLA assessment to determine if it can still be considered original or not.

As you say, it all comes down to honesty in the end. If I bought a Z, I'd expect that most of the metal in the car had left the factory at the same time, in the same car, stamped with the same number as it's now wearing.

Last edited by Mr_Tenno; 23-10-2017 at 03:11 PM..
  #35  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:15 PM
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Dougs260z Dougs260z is offline
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Taking a Vin from another vehicle in order to increase its valuation and to sell it on is fraud. If caught you would deserve all you get. If you import a LHD to UK and convert to RHD it must retain its HLS30 VIN code.

People who do this should be expelled from this club.

However

Many car shells in genuine UK cars are in poor condition and need extensive work including my own, but I would not consider re-shelling it even though it would have been cheaper to do so. it will cost me a arm and a leg to get this done right, but in the end I can sleep easy at night.


£1000 for V5 for a chrushed car shows what is really going on.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Datsun-260...UAAOSwKM5Z3eVB

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  #36  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:18 PM
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IbanezDan51 IbanezDan51 is offline
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He has loads for sale! He should be dealt with fairly...
  #37  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:30 PM
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I really hope that this is a police sting operation.
When I buy a Z car and its advertised and given paperwork is a UK registered car, I expect that most of this car is original not a re-registered US import.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Datsun-260...UAAOSwKM5Z3eVB

There is a dark place in hell for people who are doing this, what impact on existing genuine UK car values when it is discovered there are some that are re-registered US cars?

It is important to maintain honestly to preserve the faith in car buyers, and important to get as many Z's on the road as possible, but not at any cost.
  #38  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:33 PM
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chrisvega chrisvega is offline
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Seller of the V5 is deluded.
It's a 2+2
8 owners in 8 years, wasn't a very loved car then was it.....

Seriously, selling a V5 without a car which was scrapped and never notified to DVLA, now that should be illegal !
  #39  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:55 PM
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uk66fastback uk66fastback is offline
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So I presume SELLING that V5 isn't illegal, but then using it to change a car's ID, obviously IS ...

Changing a LHD Z to RHD should be fine, but as someone said, it should then retain the original VIN it left the factory with.

To try and pass off that converted car as a genuine RHD car (from any country) - well, catch this book, cos it's coming your way.

It's FRAUD - nothing less.
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  #40  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:21 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.
Grey is the word, murky is another good one - so it isn't black and white - legal vs. illegal and all depends whether done deceitfully ? All a bit subjective though.....and surely reshelling is 'profit' relative ie it'll cost less to re-shell than repair :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougs260z View Post
Many car shells in genuine UK cars are in poor condition and need extensive work including my own, but I would not consider re-shelling it even though it would have been cheaper to do so......
Quote:
Originally Posted by richiep View Post
Sean, he's referring to a LHD car on its original VIN, that has been converted. RHD converting is not changing its original identity. Identity swapping in legal terms is focussed primarily on taking the VIN from one car and putting it in another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougs260z View Post
If you import a LHD to UK and convert to RHD it must retain its HLS30 VIN code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uk66fastback View Post
Changing a LHD Z to RHD should be fine, but as someone said, it should then retain the original VIN it left the factory with.
Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but surely a LHDVIN number should be attached to a LHD Z ?
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN. One or t'other is no more or less legal.

The only difference appears to be in your (all of you) estimated end-values of each type of car.....with all the money (and therefore incentive for fraud) going on the RHD VIN with RHD chassis.

How many buyers could and would search for the tell-tale signs ?
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  #41  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:27 PM
franky franky is offline
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It’s not grey, it’s not murky, it’s black and white.
  #42  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:28 PM
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Mr_Tenno Mr_Tenno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but surely a LHDVIN number should be attached to a LHD Z ?
Even if the VIN is 'handed', I think the majority opinion is that the number should stick with the big chunk of metal it's on regardless of the modifications performed to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN. One or t'other is no more or less legal.
The latter is legal, the former is not. The 'reshelled' car would have to have a DVLA assessment and be potentially issued with a new VIN number.
  #43  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:47 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN.
Seriously? Wow...
  #44  
Old 23-10-2017, 05:34 PM
franky franky is offline
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This is the sort of thing we should be talking about on an open forum. It’s a way of not hiding history.
  #45  
Old 23-10-2017, 05:36 PM
franky franky is offline
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Sean, you do know what’s right and wrong. A vin number is assigned to a chassis, not a bulkhead. Swapping the bulkhead to rhd, it’s still a lhd vin number. Anything else is ringing.
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