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  #16  
Old 23-10-2017, 12:13 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Judging by our (now deleted by a Moderator...) exchange last night on the Datsun Europe Parts and Needs Facebook group, you seem to believe that identity-swapping is OK?

Under what circumstances?
I didn't delete it !

You didn't answer my question above - play fair and nicely please.

You KNOW the circumstances and 'ok' means what anyway ? Acceptable within the community, ok as regards the law, ok for the FIA homologation process ?

Identity swapping....meaning RHD cars with LHD VINs ? That is an identity swap surely ?

There are RHD cars with RHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.
Then there are LHD cars with LHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.

Have these cars changed identity ? RHD = RHD, LHD = LHD - same identity.

RHD car with LHD VIN frequently also with a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced = same identity ?
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  #17  
Old 23-10-2017, 12:59 PM
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Gents, this is obviously a controversial and heated topic. Please try to keep it as impersonal and objective as possible so we can keep the discussion going.
  #18  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:05 PM
franky franky is offline
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Sean, would you sell a vin swapped car? Would you support it as a practice?
  #19  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:07 PM
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The DVLA site would seem to suggest that 5 'points' from their criteria come from:

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

Since you can't get these for Z's that would make any complete shell swap (let's leave triggers's broom situations aside) unable to retain it's VIN legally in the UK without a DVLA inspection and approval.

I don't think we should consider the value of cars where a buyer may have been misled about the origins of the shell as this is obviously shady behaviour which the club does not condone.
  #20  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
I didn't delete it !

You didn't answer my question above - play fair and nicely please.

You KNOW the circumstances and 'ok' means what anyway ? Acceptable within the community, ok as regards the law, ok for the FIA homologation process ?

Identity swapping....meaning RHD cars with LHD VINs ? That is an identity swap surely ?

There are RHD cars with RHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.
Then there are LHD cars with LHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.

Have these cars changed identity ? RHD = RHD, LHD = LHD - same identity.

RHD car with LHD VIN frequently also with a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced = same identity ?

By posting it, then removing the conversation he’s inadvertently gone a long way in destroying any credibility.
  #21  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Tenno View Post
The DVLA site would seem to suggest that 5 'points' from their criteria come from:

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

Since you can't get these for Z's that would make any complete shell swap (let's leave triggers's broom situations aside) unable to retain it's VIN legally in the UK without a DVLA inspection and approval.

I don't think we should consider the value of cars where a buyer may have been misled about the origins of the shell as this is obviously shady behaviour which the club does not condone.
Any car like that should be given a unique chassis number and put on a q plate. That’s the correct way.
  #22  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franky View Post
Any car like that should be given a unique chassis number and put on a q plate. That’s the correct way.
Agreed, that certainly seems to be the way the DVLA would like it done. Definitely gets harder when cars are being repaired to this level:

  #23  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franky View Post
Sean, would you sell a vin swapped car? Would you support it as a practice?
I wouldn't know if I have or not - certainly not done so intentionally.

BTW, by a 'VIN swapped car' you obviously mean whether drive converted or not - yes ?
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  #24  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Identity swapping....meaning RHD cars with LHD VINs ? That is an identity swap surely ?

There are RHD cars with RHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.
Then there are LHD cars with LHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.

Have these cars changed identity ? RHD = RHD, LHD = LHD - same identity.

RHD car with LHD VIN frequently also with a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced = same identity ?
Anyone care to comment ?
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  #25  
Old 23-10-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Anyone care to comment ?
I think that's where it gets very tricky. From a legal perspective I imagine anything that's beyond a medium level of rust or accident repair would need an inspection where you'd have to let the DVLA decide what counted as worthy of the original VIN.

From a moral perspective, I'd say it's down to the 'average person' check - if you got a random person off the street to look at the parts that are left from the original shell, would they still consider it a car? If it's just a bulkhead and a couple of pillars.. probably not.
  #26  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:27 PM
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Matt - I'm not talking about a pile of bits - I mean a finished car, all complete, painted - the works !
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  #27  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:34 PM
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I know, I meant when it was being repaired / modified the owner has to make that call then.

A buyer has to take the car at face-value, even if the seller explains what work was carried out, without an official DVLA inspection the buyer will still expect that the VIN is correct for the car.
  #28  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:38 PM
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I hear there are quite a few Bugatti's out there that have very few of the original parts left on them. How far gone before the car is no-longer able to ware it's original chassis plate/number? A friend of mine a '32 ford. The log book says '32 ford and the chassis plate is original but that's about it. Everything else new including the fiberglass body. Lots of famous and not so famous race cars no-longer have their original body shell. It's only now that the values are going up that people are starting to ask questions.

Getting back to zeds. To me the most important thing about a zed is its shell. I could never afford or want to spend £30k+ on a totally original rust free UK car but I probably could afford a LHD shell in the same or better condition that's been converted to RHD. So for a lot less money you can have a RHD 240z that's in equivalent condition to an extremely rare RHD UK car. I would have a guess on there being only a handful of UK rust free, never welded cars around and its extremely hard to find one for sale. With regard to value, I'd pay more for an immaculate LHD car than a rusty repaired UK RHD car.
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  #29  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:38 PM
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Lets be honest, any handy man could easily do the vin swap without it being traceable.

That's probably why that car on eBay I posted has already gone over 2k - someone will swap out the shell and retain the vin and make out its an original car with no welding and no rust - yeah and bears don't **** in the woods.
  #30  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Tenno View Post
.....the buyer will still expect that the VIN is correct for the car.
And your definition of 'correct' is ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnymd View Post
.... but I probably could afford a LHD shell in the same or better condition that's been converted to RHD. So for a lot less money you can have a RHD 240z that's in equivalent condition to an extremely rare RHD UK car. I would have a guess on there being only a handful of UK rust free, never welded cars around and its extremely hard to find one for sale. With regard to value, I'd pay more for an immaculate LHD car than a rusty repaired UK RHD car.
You're referring to an identity swap then : RHD VIN on what was originally a LHD chassis but in any case - a different chassis to that wearing the VIN when it left the factory.
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