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  #1  
Old 20-10-2017, 09:53 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Values & VIN Swapping

Two questions :

Which is 'worth' more on the open(UK) market - a RHD VIN-ed Z or a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z or an original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z ?

Or do buyers judge each car simply upon condition and specification ?
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Last edited by Mr_Tenno; 23-10-2017 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: Thread cleanup.
  #2  
Old 20-10-2017, 10:38 PM
franky franky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Unless someone wants a UK VIN on their conversion.

Which begs two questions :

Which is 'worth' more on the open(UK) market - a RHD VIN-ed Z or a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z or an original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z ?

Or do buyers judge each car simply upon condition and specification ?
Surely the car that has the incorrect vin has the lowest value of them all. we all know that. Its not like its a prominent car with history attached to that vin.
  #3  
Old 22-10-2017, 07:31 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Two questions :

Which is 'worth' more on the open(UK) market - a RHD VIN-ed Z or a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z or an original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z ?

Or do buyers judge each car simply upon condition and specification ?
Do you think VIN-swapping is legal, Sean?

Your happy-go-lucky chassis number-swapping pal seems to have convinced you that it's all perfectly above board.

Last edited by Mr_Tenno; 23-10-2017 at 12:53 PM..
  #4  
Old 22-10-2017, 08:51 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Sean,
By way of a heads-up:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1049731&i=0

It's quite long, but after a few hundred posts you might start to get the feeling for the zeitgeist...
  #5  
Old 23-10-2017, 09:42 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Do you think VIN-swapping is legal, Sean?
Alan - please answer my questions above first.
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A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
  #6  
Old 23-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
Alan - please answer my questions above first.
OK, I'll play:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart
Which is 'worth' more on the open(UK) market - a RHD VIN-ed Z or a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z or an original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z ?
"a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z" should - all other things being equal - be worth less than your theoretical "RHD VIN-ed Z" (what market, what variant?) and/or your theoretical "original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z" (again, what variant?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart
Or do buyers judge each car simply upon condition and specification ?
It's not a matter of either/or. Any sensible and informed buyer will inspect and judge on specification, condition and year, model, variant, RHD/LHD and everything else, according to their requirements and budget. If the car has been subject to identity/chassis number/documentation swapping, all bets are off. Guess why?
  #7  
Old 23-10-2017, 10:29 AM
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I think you know the answer to your questions Sean

I'd say, assuming a similar condition and specification:

1st: Original (UK) market RHD with original VIN Z
2nd: Original (SA, AUS, JP etc) market RHD with original VIN Z
3rd: RHD Converted Z with original LHD VIN.

Shouldn't be considered: Z with incorrect VIN

If the specification and condition vary, as they often do, it's more down to that but I'd imagine most people have the above as a 'modifier' on the price they're willing to pay in the back of their head.
  #8  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:06 AM
franky franky is offline
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A fairlady is always worth more than a uk 240z
  #9  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:22 AM
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Why is a SA or AUS spec. car worth less than UK spec ?

I know hypothetically we are supposed to be comparing 'all things being equal condition wise' but most times the SA/AUS car will be in superior original structural condition anyway which gives it higher status/value/desirability as far as I am concerned.

Also were UK/SA/AUS cars not all built on same production line to the same ROW spec anyway ?
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Old 23-10-2017, 11:26 AM
franky franky is offline
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I’d like to know why people see the need to swap vin numbers?
  #11  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:28 AM
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Mr_Tenno Mr_Tenno is offline
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I know what you mean Chris, assuming they are structurally similar though I'd imagine most UK buyers would prefer a UK car, already registered, speedo in MPH, might have club history etc.
  #12  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:29 AM
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chrisvega chrisvega is offline
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Originally Posted by franky View Post
I’d like to know why people see the need to swap vin numbers?
Now you are being naive and I thought being an ex-sailor you were a man of the world

Last edited by chrisvega; 23-10-2017 at 02:18 PM.. Reason: Spelling mistake on naive, no k in front
  #13  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:45 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Values & VIN Swapping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
"a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z" should - all other things being equal - be worth less than your theoretical "RHD VIN-ed Z" (what market, what variant?) and/or your theoretical "original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z" (again, what variant?).
Original UK market RHD Zs - which variant ? You can surely only mean 240Z, 260Z or 260Z 2+2 and one can only compare like for like so variants not an issue imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
If the car has been subject to identity/chassis number/documentation swapping, all bets are off. Guess why?
But one will have to know that an I.D/chassis has been swapped !*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Tenno View Post
I'd say, assuming a similar condition and specification:

1st: Original (UK) market RHD with original VIN Z
2nd: Original (SA, AUS, JP etc) market RHD with original VIN Z
3rd: RHD Converted Z with original LHD VIN.

Shouldn't be considered: Z with incorrect VIN
*There are quite a few of these last cars running around imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franky View Post
A fairlady is always worth more than a uk 240z
What variant ?
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A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
  #14  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:55 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
But one will have to know that an I.D/chassis has been swapped !
Judging by our (now deleted by a Moderator...) exchange last night on the Datsun Europe Parts and Needs Facebook group, you seem to believe that identity-swapping is OK?

Under what circumstances?
  #15  
Old 23-10-2017, 11:56 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
By way of a heads-up:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1049731&i=0

It's quite long, but after a few hundred posts you might start to get the feeling for the zeitgeist...
This is what I picked out as a summing up statement and written recently by one of those who frequently reported ebay adverts :

"Thursday 14th September 2017 skwdenyer said:
So you buy the "for restoration" Mk1 shell + log book for £66k, buy a new shell and "re-shell" the car (quite legal), put on the axles etc. that you've had "restored" (ah-hem). Dodgy as hell?

Think about the life of a competition car. Actual rally cars would be like Trigger's broom - new shells, new axles, new engines, etc. There's no way any of it is "original" on a great many cars, but there we are.

I'm genuinely interested - ignoring the legality for a moment, where would people on this thread draw the line? What is "ok" and what is "not ok" and how is that squared with what has happened in the past?

Anything can be used for illegal purposes, and the law can be good or bad or indifferent. I'm just interested in the personal moral angle here.
I'm completely content for people to do that, and I don't have a problem with the V5s that are sold with a shell/chassis, even if what you're physically getting is truly horrible. I've seen some real miracle workers out there in terms of metalwork. Almost anything is nominally fixable with the right approach, and a nice new shell is a perfectly ok thing to use in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't even particularly mind people using a V5 to legitamise a "bitsa" as long as all the parts were obtained legally, though that's not really necessary. You can get a classic that's been built from a variety of parts registered as what it "should" be anyway.

My issue is when people can use this paperwork to ring a stolen car, "launder" a write off, or otherwise defraud people by selling something as what it isn't."


The issue appears to be when a re-VINed shell is sold as something it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Do you think VIN-swapping is legal, Sean?
Now, is it illegal to do such a restoration whether for yourself or selling on ? Or merely illegal to sell it on without informing the buyer of said conversion ?

I don't know is my answer Alan !
__________________
A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
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