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  #16  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:37 AM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franky View Post
Again, you can't argue with facts can you.

https://www.philosophersmag.com/essa...on-distinction
Subjectivity being subjective, of course.

>3000rpm/3-mins @70mph = large explosion and many dead kittens.
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:46 AM
franky franky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
Subjectivity being subjective, of course.

>3000rpm/3-mins @70mph = large explosion and many dead kittens.

exactly.
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:59 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
More Porsche nonsense. What Porsches (contemporary to the car in question) were fitted with 4-speed transmissions as standard equipment? The answer is the softened-up and dumbed-down versions, just like the HLS30-U in question.

Meanwhile, properly sporting models of Porsches were fitted with 5-speed transmissions - just like properly sporting versions of the S30-series Z were.
https://www.total911.com/manual-gear...e-911-history/

"Until the arrival of the Porsche 911T in 1968, the 911 exclusively used a five-speed gearbox. However, the entry level ‘T’ used a four-speed 901/03 shifter, while the 911L and 911S shared the five-speed 901/50 gearbox."

By properly sporting models, do you mean the 4spd Carrerra 2.7 (1974-77) and the 4spd 911 turbo (1975-77) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
What Porsches (contemporary to the car in question) were fitted with 4-speed transmissions as standard equipment? The answer is the softened-up and dumbed-down versions, just like the HLS30-U in question.
You answered your own question Alan and yes, I'm comparing Porsches to the USA market car highlighted.

I'll go further.....imho Porsche consumer engine size increased as a reaction to Nissans' North American sportscar's engine cc !

The A and B series used a 2.0 engine and were outperformed by the Fairlady SRL311.

The C (1969) and D (1970/71) had a 2.2 engine which the 240Z improved upon.

The E series came out in 1972/3 with a 2.3ltr engine (known as the 2.4 which I find coincidential) along with a 5spd (915 type) gearbox and then increased to 2.7 in 1974.

Following the release of the 280Z in 1975, Porsche, in 1976, uprated again to 3.0.

The dates and figures are facts - how anyone wishes to interpret them is their right and perhaps 'opinion' (thankyou Franky).

.
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2017, 12:13 PM
Albrecht Albrecht is offline
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You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart
Unfair when comparing to contempory concurrence which were mostly 4spd including the Porsches.
And then quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart View Post
"Until the arrival of the Porsche 911T in 1968, the 911 exclusively used a five-speed gearbox. However, the entry level ‘T’ used a four-speed 901/03 shifter, while the 911L and 911S shared the five-speed 901/50 gearbox."
It's like dealing with the Flat Earth Society. You even bash your own arguments with quoted facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDezart
You answered your own question Alan and yes, I'm comparing Porsches to the USA market car highlighted.

I'll go further.....imho Porsche consumer engine size increased as a reaction to Nissans' North American sportscar's engine cc !
Utter nonsense. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeadDezart
Following the release of the 280Z in 1975, Porsche, in 1976, uprated again to 3.0.
2.7 Carrera RS (early 1972), 2.8 RSR (late 1972), 3.0 RS (mid 1973), RSR 3.0 Carrera (early 1974). Each a response to homologation needs focused on racing, framed by increased capacity allowances in international GT racing. All 5-speed equipped.

You honestly think they were responding (early...!) to the '260Z' and the oh-so-sporting '280Z'...? I think you've been mining USA-centric sources again.
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  #20  
Old 07-08-2017, 03:13 PM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
I'd bet he had actually had no idea that the emblems were a mismatch.

Once you put a car on the open market, you have to expect - and accept - that people will pass comment on it. If you gratefully accept the positive comments, you have an obligation to accept the negatives too.
I bet he did but liked the association with the Japanese roots of the car !

100% agreed with your last statement which is also applicable for forum and youtube presentations - some will and some won't like it - that's what the thumbs up and down is for !
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  #21  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:38 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrecht View Post
It's like dealing with the Flat Earth Society. You even bash your own arguments with quoted facts.

2.7 Carrera RS (early 1972), 2.8 RSR (late 1972), 3.0 RS (mid 1973), RSR 3.0 Carrera (early 1974). Each a response to homologation needs focused on racing, framed by increased capacity allowances in international GT racing. All 5-speed equipped.

You honestly think they were responding (early...!) to the '260Z' and the oh-so-sporting '280Z'...? I think you've been mining USA-centric sources again.
THOSE are YOUR fact Alan ! Mine stand scrutiny :

The Fairlady SRL311 was a 5-speed as were the Porsches UNTIL 1968 ! They were then fitted with 4spds (911T) as was the 240Z to Nissan’s largest (often badly misquoted as most important) market. I therefore find it unfair to criticise Nissan’s choice of 4speeds for the North American 240Zs as even the contemporary Porsche 911s had a 4speed gearbox !

The Z was an entry-level sports-car Alan – you can’t deny that – the ‘$3500’ wonder !

The 911S is in another league, hardly comparable with the dumbed-down yank-spec Z.

Now, if we’d seen Nissan export the L-gata triple-carbed version or even the Z432 as was considered for a short-while, all comparisons might have been fairer.

Porsche’s homologation evolution is one thing, translating that for dealer road-car sales is another.

Yes, Porsche goes racing and as you said, they needed sales to be able to do so and obviously some racing developments found their way into road cars – normal. BUT…..all this hinges upon sales and Nissan hurt them in the States which was for both of them their biggest sales-volume export market !

Some world sales figures :

http://press.porsche.com/more_about/history/
Begins : 1948 !
1977
Total Porsche production to date passes 300,000.
1987
250,000th 911 built.
1998
Porsche introduces the first 100-percent all-new 911 model since the first one in 1964

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ons-13735.html

911 2,0 Coupé from 1965
Total number of vehicles produced: 81,100

911 Carrera 2,7 Coupé from 1973
Total number of vehicles produced: 198,414

http://myautoworld.com/porsche/cars/...oduction_.html

The figures speak for themselves as far as I’m concerned – Datsun Zs outsold Porsches : by the beginning of 1979, Nissan had sold well over 500,000 S30s whereas Porsche took until 1987 to reach less than half that in 911 sales.

Porsche 911 2.0 1964-67 5spd 130bhp
Porsche 912 1965-69 4spd 90bhp (entry level)
Porsche 911 L 1967-68 2.0 130bhp 4spd / Porsche 911 T 1967-68 2.0 110bhp 4spd (entry level)
Datsun SRL311 1967-70 5spd 135bhp / Datsun SPL311 1965-70 4spd 95bhp
Datsun SRL311 1967-70 5spd 150bhp (Solex)
Porsche 911 E 1968-70 2.0 140bhp 5spd + injection
Datsun 240Z 1970-73 2.4 4spd 130bhp
Porsche 911 T 1970-72 2.2 5spd 125bhp (entry level) / Porsche 911 E 1970-72 2.2 150bhp 5spd + injection
Datsun 240Z 1970-73 2.4 4spd 130bhp*
Porsche 911 T 1972-73 2.4 130bhp 5spd / Porsche 911 E 1972-73 2.4 165bhp 5spd+ injection
Datsun 260Z 2.6 1974 4spd 135bhp / Datsun 280Z 1975-78 4/5spd 145bhp
Porsche 911 2.7 1973-77 2.7 148bhp 5spd + injection but less of an “oh-so-sporting” sports-car already – rather designed for thr softer, US market don’t you think with it’s built-in impact bumpers ?

*shame that the triple-carbed version wasn’t available as an option as had been the Solex Roadster version !

I just can’t see why Porsche needed to evolve so quickly if sales were good ;

Between 1967 and 1973 they increased their engine capacities 3x and fitted mechanical FI (D-Jetronic ?**) to say ‘in front’ and in 1968 (a year after the dominant SRL311 arrived), the Porsche bodies were modified to improve handling and the entry level car (like the SPL311 has a 4spd box).

**Despite Electronic FI being available from 1974 and used by the 1975 280Z (type L-Jetronic), Porsche continued fitting the outdated K-system from 1973.5 until 1994).

The date-lines therefore speak for themselves but you know full well that Nissan in the (large and therefore important for foreign exchange, volume production and flagships for the smaller, better selling cars) North American market enlarged their engine sizes to meet emission’s testing…..and perhaps Porsche followed suit !

I respect Porsche but refuse to be bowled over by the publicity, the hype and the automatic assumption that everything they have done was right, performance-related and all going towards some pre-determined goal of sports-car dominance.
They’re there first and foremost to sell cars to make money and if sales were hurting – they reacted !

If, as you have tended to do, we move onto modern versions (993/996) we should also include those other models that Porsche has been successfully selling :

The diesels and their hybrid cousins:

Macan
Cayenne
Panamera

These car have little influence on the evolution of competition cars and please don’t try and convince me that Porsche have conceived or at least revolutionised such engines– Porsche have simply jumped on the bandwagon as Jaguar did when they began producing diesels and 4x4s ; they want to sell cars, anycars and to any market /consumer.

Talking of hybrids and competition…..even this :

http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/porsch...-th-1797294277

is a follow on from this from Nissan 2x years ago :

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-wec-for-2016/

The world just got flatter !
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Sean Dézart
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  #22  
Old 13-08-2017, 08:59 AM
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SeanDezart SeanDezart is offline
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So, didn't sell - reserve too unrealistic (?) with comments on the 'unfinished' look at the rear.

Found this in one of Ben Millspaugh's books so take it with salt....

1970/71 were the good years and before the first OPEC crisis but Porsche sales plateaued before dropping off seriously in '74. Surprisingly the Z sales plunged during '73 and '77 - perhaps as a whiff of a new model was in the air ?

Inevitably, all car sales plunged after the Iranian Revolution and the nationalisation of UK/US oil assets there.

Ultimately, confidence returned but Porsche took over 10 years to return to the sales they knew when the 240Z arrived !
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A new Datsun era !

Sean Dézart
(33) 6 14 95 42 17
seanz@wanadoo.fr

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zstor...6789934?ref=hl

Club Datsun-France www.datsun-france.com

I Love Zs.
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  #23  
Old 13-08-2017, 09:44 AM
franky franky is offline
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at 36500, I'd say thats a fair price for that car (£28k). Its not got any stand out parts/spec.

ETA - which way and what are the fees on BAT auctions? Going though the pics, its been done with love, so 30k ish, $39000?

Last edited by franky; 13-08-2017 at 09:55 AM..
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