Why build a Hybrid Z ?

ZHead

Well-Known Forum User
First of all THANK YOU RUSS for creating a section for discussing the whole Hybrid thing, hopefully this will be a positive and friendly place where EVERYONE can chip in, have a laugh and discuss / debate the whole topic.

So why would anyone actually go to all the trouble of building a Hybrid ? Well I guess that question could be asked of Mr F, Luke Borg, Richard Wills, Clive Standish and the rest of the guys who have done this before.

From my perspective, the S30 is a beautifully proportioned car. To me it simply "looks right" but obviously being a late 60s design it has limitations when compared to a modern car such as a porsche or a bmw, so saying, it equally has a lot more soul.

The challenge is creating a car that has the spirit and soul of the original but one that will hold it's head high and out perform modern cars. This in part I guess is why people build 3.1L straight six engines and uprate suspension, brakes and steering.

The engine swap is just a logical extension of the "sympathetic modifications" seen on straight sixes.

So in essence I think that anyone who modifies their car away from concours original is aspiring to the same thing, a faster, smoother, better handling and stopping car. The only difference is the length that an individual will go to in order to get what he or she wants.

What do you think ?

Is a totally modified car (think Larry Horn's safari Z in the last magazine - awesome engineering, totally different car but still an L series straight six) still as it should have been or is it maybe bordering on a Hybrid ?

That car has a centrally mounted fuel tank, individually valved cannister suspension, monster vented discs and modern calipers, custom radiator, F1 flanges and driveshafts, custom clutch pack in the diff etc etc etc. FAR from sympathetic modification, it is virtually a new car, absolutley state of the art.

Debate, argue, question, discuss but let's all be nice :D We have been given a new play room so we should respect it :D

No need to sit on the fence, EVERY view is valid and will add something to the whole discussion.
 
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Tony 260Z

Club Member
I'm a classic fence-sitter so I see benefits to both sides of the argument. If someone decides to take a concourse condition all-original 240Z and Hybridize it then I'll probably shout "NO" with the loudest of 'em, but resurrecting a car which would otherwise rot away, or customising a good-but-not-concours car to your own tastes is very much OK in my book. Better to love a custom or hybrid Z than ignore a concours one.

And I don't see the point of modifying a straight-six to the hilt when you could spend less and get more grunt (as well as a gloroius exhaust note) by dropping in a SBC. OK, so it might well upset the balance of the car due to the weight, but if it's your car and you understand and consider that fact, then why not? If you want to keep originality and balance and have the budget to suit then modify your L-series, but I still want a V8 in my next S30!
 

ZHead

Well-Known Forum User
That's a fair point I had not thought of Tony, I agree, I would not butcher a concours car either. In fact, I would love to do a straight six car in the future but obviously time and funds are stretched enough doing one car so it will have to wait.

The weight balance is not an issue really if the conversion is done properly, there are a lot of urban myths and misconceptions about. It is pretty easy to retain exactly the same weight distribution, however I am probably going to err towards having a little extra at the back (yes back, NOT front) in order to help with traction.

The hardest part of putting that much power in a Z is getting it onto the road - there are other threads where Mr F talks about tyres, diffs etc and how easy it is to overpower a car. His recommendations were based on scientific calculation (read software) that predicts quarter mile times. Interestingly, the predictions were once you go over about 420 - 430 BHP your standing quarters will get slower because of traction issues.

Translate this onto a track - I do not want so much power that you have to gently feather the throttle round bends to avoid breaking traction, doing a pirrhouette and causing a huge repair bill. Worse still it means Sean would win and I would never live that down :D

Because of the amount of strengthening involved, I would guess that 85% of engine swaps are done in cars that need a good rebuild from ground floor up. No point doing it to a really good one because you have to trash it and start again.

Look forward to your V8 S30 .......
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Tony,

I couldn't agree more with your comments re concurs 240Z's etc. I have two 2 260Z's currently and a 280ZX ‘convertible’ but that’s a different story altogether. One of my 260's, a 79, is so original I am amazed. The only change from stock I can find is the replacement of the old flat top carbs. I couldn't bring myself to use it as the base of my project even though it still needs substantial work to the chassis to make it roadworthy.



Regarding the balance and weight issues of V8's, this is not strictly true anymore. Even with cast iron SBC, the cost of bolt on performance aluminium parts is very reasonable now and if installed in the JTR set back position and not the scarab one, close on original weight distribution can be relatively easily achieved.

If you want to go mad you can buy all aluminium LS1 SBC which is already 80lbs lighter than its cast iron brother. If you put this in with John's Cars (JCI) bolt in mounts your weight increase should only be 30lbs but on the REAR due to the heavy duty six speed gearbox.



Well that’s the principle anyway .... :)
 

Arkwright

Inactive
My own feelings are that we shouldn't be doing this to the cars that are left. I think it'sd fine to 'alter' more modern motors but when a car becomes a classic then it shouldn't be chopped about. We should be thinking of preserving all that we can.
Those that are found rotting away should be saved somewhere to keep the better ones running. Perhaps I'm looking for Ztopia.
 

ZHead

Well-Known Forum User
Maybe .... however, I don't know if you aware that the V8s BOLT in - at some stage in the future should anyone want to take the V8 out, the engine UNBOLTS, the brackets UNBOLT and a straight six BOLTS back in.

This is most definitely a reversible process.
 

moggy240

Insurance Valuations Officer
Staff member
Club Member
i would not look at it being a Hybrid Z but the concept of evolution to improve on a good platform,you only have to look at the difference's of the very first 240Z to the last 260Z/280Z .the main thing they all have in common is the body shape but alot of other things have been improved over the years or take the 240Z now and apply all things that are standard on todays cars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
 

Russ

Club Member
My plan has been (although it changes daily) to build the ultimate Z oneday. Now I agree with Tony260 totally, he has summed up my views in that don't wreck a good one, but bring back a dead one how you like.

I know there are limited cars, but there are LOADS in the states to play with if need be.

Also I was reading the book about Mr K. ("Mr. K - A Man who realized a dream in America"), and it seems he was aiming at something different to what the Americans already had when he asked for the Z car. He wanted to follow the Europeans, looks of the E-Type, engine more than 2 ltrs but economical enough etc. I'm sure if the car had come along 5 years earlier, or if Nissan had been better known and able to take business from existing markets then they'd have made a V8.

The reason I'm here and that you lot have my take on this website is because of www.darius240z.com.

I intend to make the car how I want it to be, it is afterall just metal, a tool to take you places, it was made in a factory. I will however keep all the original bits so one day it could go back to how it was. The only thing that may change is the transmission tunnel may need to be beaten out a bit, but nothing a restorer couldn't fix. The v8 bolts in as mentioned using either Scarab mounts or JTR design etc (I'd favour a modified JTR mounts).

NOTHING IS PERMANENT, just because I may want electronic dials, more modern seats, bigger brakes and a v8 doesn't mean that in 20 years time I couldn't turn it back to a 2.4 L6.

The 240z shape is what sold it to me, when your inside the glass his so small, the doors are so high up, its like a roof chop almost. It looks stunning.

I would like to make the car how Nissan would make it now given any budget :)

As for weight distribution, the L6 is pretty lardy already :)
 

Russ

Club Member
Oh man, its not a Renault engine! (cue Mr.F :) ).

I think the 350z is about right, its done at a price, and for the performance vs the price I think its a good deal. Put the Q45 in it and it'd probably have been another £5k (thats 30 million US dollars) and then the balance between engine and interior finish would have been wrong imho.

I don't think there are that many anti v8 sentiments, I think the v8 boys are very touchy :) To each his own, its no different saying "my v8 gives me twice the power to weight ratio as your l6" than saying "I don't think v8s should be put into a car designed for the L6", its just an opinion.

I think taking a concourse car, that is all original and a lovely example of how the car was originally, and then changing that around is a shame. There aren't many around like it and so they should be preserved for the sake of history, if you want to change a Z pick a structurally sound one by all means, but not one that looks like it did on the forecourt 30 something years ago :)

Anyway the question is "Why build a Hybrid Z", and my answer would be "to upset lots of other cars on the road, a real sleeper is awesome, I'd love to shame the M3 crew with a 30 year old Datsun" :D
 

Russ

Club Member
Oh and the car club hasn't suddenly woken up :) Someone finally asked for a Hybrid forum, Mr.F was putting silly engines in things many years ago along with others, and they have been a very big part of the club since the beginning.

280b-out.jpg


Hybrid enough? :D
 

zedhead260

Well-Known Forum User
Russ said:
I don't think there are that many anti v8 sentiments, I think the v8 boys are very touchy :)
I have to agree here. One guy says he doesn't like them, another guy throws all his toys out the pram and all of a sudden this site is full of anti-V8 sentiment - what a load of rubbish.

It's your car, you do what you like with it. Got no problem with any engine you want to put in it.

I am yet to see a Z with a V8 in it (Ratz excluded, not a road car), so am yet to be impressed by one. I look forward to the day when one comes to a meet, grab me as a passenger and drive like a man possessed. I'm sure I'll be very impressed.
 

Gio

Well-Known Forum User
Mk3zee said:
... start with the best and improve it which is exactly what you will be doing by sticking a V8 in a Z, it is what Nissan should have done in the first place, and I feel it was a lost opportunity by Nissan.
I don't think any of the Zeds were a "lost opportunity". The Straight 6 was chosen deliberately - no doubt for a whole host of reasons. It was - and will remain - a good choice for a smooth, powerful, compact (but long) engine in perfect primary balance. A V8 can never be in perfect primary balance which is what contributes to its character.

Before anyone starts accusing me of bias, my current car (V6) is in even less balance than a V8 but I love it none the less. And I have ridden, driven and owned singles, parallel and boxer twins (2 and 4 wheels: name me a boxer twin car?) straight triples (most of the below in 2 and 4 stroke), rotary on 2 and 4 wheels, inline and V4s, inline and V6 and V8. Missed out on a Straight 8 and couldn't wangle to visit the mad swiss bloke that made a straight 12 by taking two Z1300 straight 6s, reversing one, cutting the ends off and welding them together.

But if you want an engine in perfect primary balance? Straight 6 does it and that's one of the reasons Mr Katayama (remember, living in the land of the V8) chose a Straight 6. Hooray!

V8s are great engines no question. I was looking for a V8 engined car (MGB GT V8 if you must know) before I got seduced by Zs. Name me any "Muscle" car without one. Not many.

And I adore barking mad engine configs. Did you know that Citroen made a 4wd 2CV by bolting a whole new front end with its own engine (the other way round) in place of the rear axle? :eek:

Because of the similarity, you can fairly easily (well some of you can, I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler and setsquare) stick a Porsche boxer 6 into a Beetle.

Transplanting a Chevy V8 into a Z is a bit like putting an American heart into a Japanese Geisha. Well, if that's the only way to save her life, then fair enough. If, you're aiming for strip success, it's an easy option for sure.
 

ZHead

Well-Known Forum User
Mk3zee said:
I I would love to meet up with you guys soon when I am next on your side of the pond.
Please feel free to email any time farranta@aol.com and welcome to the forum - things have settled, people have got their heads back and proper lively debate is starting, that is what a club is all about !

We have all been a bit touchy, bit like school kids deciding which gang to be in :D

Let's get on and upset a few modern cars on the track and at the strip :D
 

Gio

Well-Known Forum User
ZHead said:
Let's get on and upset a few modern cars on the track and at the strip :D
Now amen to that: even I enjoy seeing a V8 Z whupping other cars (preferably poopras but anything will do :D ) Just not quite as much as a Nissan engined one.
 

Zbirdy

Well-Known Forum User
I tend to agree with Derek on this, I must be missing something here, but I have tried to imagine a 240z that has been raped and molested of all its beautiful original characterisitcs, for the sake of performance, by putting a v8 under the bonnet, and uprating its braking system, etc etc, and I just think its SAD.
Surely, if you want to drive this sort of machine, then buy something that was born that way. A hybrid z, as you all call them, is no different from a ford popular, that has been cut and lowered, chevy lump stuck inside, with a big flame painted on each side, just above the side pipes. Pathetic, basically.
In my view anyone who molests a classic car, (be it a Z or a Morris Minor) out of all proportion, and in doing so loses all or most of its originality, cannot love and appreciate classics in the historical sense. The levels of acceptability to me, end at safety features, like inertia belts, and perhaps a new paint job. It seems a shame to me, that when you attend a show, so many z cars are altered to such a degree, you lose the level playing field when it comes to judging. How can you compare, when they are so different. I must say, I love the sound of a V8, as much as anyone, and if the chance arrives, at the right price, I would buy one, in a TVR, not in a Z.
Don.
 

Zed2k

Well-Known Forum User
My own opinion on the subject is that it's your car and you have to build it to how you want it, my engine at present is a n L28 flat top pistons F54 block skimmed P90 head stage 2 cam, triples and NOS the car has bigger vented brakes uprated suspension etc. etc, etc, looks pretty standard from outside if a little lower, I would say my car is a Hybrid Z but not with a V8, but I do love the sound and I would not think twice about putting 5.7 V8 in my car, It would looks just like it grew there, I would also like to meet up some of the V8 guys for a chat and ride in a 240/260 with a V8 in to compare the performance and maybe when I get out from the ride I'll start saving the pennies. Each to there own L24 fine V8 probably better.
As for the car to do it to, I can see both side of the argument but putting a V8 lump in a poor quality shell has to be bad news..
Nick... ( car in for MOT in the Morning DOH!!!)
 

Russ

Club Member
ZHead said:
We have all been a bit touchy, bit like school kids deciding which gang to be in :D

Let's get on and upset a few modern cars on the track and at the strip :D
I think the school kids and gangs analogy is bang on lol, kids certainly, ah well, so long as we all remain polite and respect eachothers opinions (even if everyone elses opinion is actually wrong lol) then we'll get on fine. Bring on the open debates!

Looking forward to the upsetting! :D Even if I was of the "Dont change a car from its intended design" brigade I think I'd still appreciate something that looked like a Z (and everyone who isn't into the club will still think of it as a Z) spanking scoobies and such :D It can only win the club popularity, and that has to be good.
 

Russ

Club Member
Ok I won't discuss this further as we all have better things to chat about, but...

Gio is entitled to his opinion, as is anyone.

Anti-v8 sentiment, there isn't really any, never has anyone said "Go away this club isn't for you", there are other clubs that cater for purist Z and we are not them.

Things do get very out of hand very quickly, everyone needs to stop taking everything so personally, grow up, and respect eachothers views.

Andytt never dissed a L series, that's fine. He did however make out a member was Hitler, that is NOT fine and will not be tolerated, regardless of whether the person runs an L series or a V8.

Now can we get back on topic and stop going round in circles and start chatting about fun things like what brake setups you have and has anyone drastically modified their suspension??

One thing I have noticed about the v8 lot, they type a LOT :)

Cheers
 

zedhead260

Well-Known Forum User
Mk3zee said:
it is disappointing to note that even some of your committee members are condoning such offensive comments (and yes I found them offensive too, as did a couple of our guys over here) and they haven’t been posted on our forum yet, for example, Zhead260 who is supposed to be a moderator says and I quote.

‘One guy says he doesn't like them, another guy throws all his toys out the pram and all of a sudden this site is full of anti-V8 sentiment - what a load of rubbish’.
I'm not condoning anything ! My point is that this site / Club is not full of anti-V8 sentiment.
 
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