Throttle bodies vs carbs

[SKiddell]

Indeed Sean (just playing mate), we now get back to definitions of "fast" and "quick"

We often see very fast and very powerfull cars but "fast and powerfull" are subjective expressions, only relevant to the individuals experiance and don't always end up in low 1/4 mile figures. At this years Jap show finale we saw Skyline after Skyline fluff it on the line or make a very poor change up and end up in the high 14's and 15 seconds but I'll bet that in the pub that night, the owners are still quoting 500 Hp (btw no offence to skyline owners ..Simon )

 

[SeanDezart]

Indeed Sean (just playing mate), we now get back to definitions of "fast" and "quick"

We often see very fast and very powerfull cars but "fast and powerfull" are subjective expressions, only relevant to the individuals experiance and don't always end up in low 1/4 mile figures. At this years Jap show finale we saw Skyline after Skyline fluff it on the line or make a very poor change up and end up in the high 14's and 15 seconds but I'll bet that in the pub that night, the owners are still quoting 500 Hp (btw no offence to skyline owners ..Simon )

Who's Simon ?

So we learn that :

1) getting the power down is crucial, more so than how much one has (like making love really)

2) reaction times do count (dope smoking doesn't help your 0-400m times)

3) getting the torque low down is crucial too (no point having 900bhp if sod all hapens below 5000rpm)

4) keeping the torque and bhp all the way through the rev. range is crucial (engines like consistency...like women do)

So, I think I might have a sporting chance to get into the top five in the Drag Race Challenge Class no. 1.

 

[grolls]

1/4 mile is not the be end and end all!

Whats the point of going really fast in the first 1/4 then being crapped on in the 2nd 1/4 then beaten on the brakes into the first corner? Is it not better to have an all round car?

 

[zedhead260]

So, I think I might have a sporting chance to get into the top five in the Drag Race Challenge Class no. 1.

Knowing a little about the innards of DJR's strokers Sean, I think you have a very good chance of getting top 5 and maybe even beating Steve (a 300cc larger engine and the extra umph that goes with it should be enough..with carbs) - assuming of course everything else is in place, LSD, tyres.

However, I don't think anyone would expect this to happen on the first run, or even the first meeting - it will take a little practice...........and i have a feeling that Steve might rasie the bar a little higher this coming season.

 

[zedhead260]

1/4 mile is not the be end and end all!

Whats the point of going really fast in the first 1/4 then being crapped on in the 2nd 1/4 then beaten on the brakes into the first corner? Is it not better to have an all round car?

Here we go again ...............

Nobody said it was the be all and end all. It's just a performance measure to give you a real world understanding of how your car performs. It includes your reaction, your acceleration, your traction and useable horse power.

0 - 60 mph is meaningless bollocks, yet why is it used so often ??

 

[SeanDezart]

Knowing a little about the innards of DJR's strokers Sean, I think you have a very good chance of getting top 5 and maybe even beating Steve (a 300cc larger engine and the extra umph that goes with it should be enough..with carbs) - assuming of course everything else is in place, LSD, tyres.

However, I don't think anyone would expect this to happen on the first run, or even the first meeting - it will take a little practice...........and i have a feeling that Steve might rasie the bar a little higher this coming season.

That's what I'm afraid of and anyway.......I'm counting on it I don't expect to do it on the first run but then, that just proves what I've been saying - too many variables to call it an exact science (ducks whilst steel wings, doors, glass and other heavy Z stuff are thrown out to ighten his car ;-)

""0 - 60 mph is meaningless bollocks, yet why is it used so often ??""

Cos we're still not doing the legal maximum ?

""Whats the point of going really fast in the first 1/4 then being crapped on in the 2nd 1/4 then beaten on the brakes into the first corner? Is it not better to have an all round car?""

I've always said that the true test of a cars' performance is a timed lap (accelration, gear-changing up and down, braking, corners etc) - it was pointed out to me that that was more a test of the driver. Except that Skiddy mentioned NOT being a stupid driver on a recent post re drag-runs so any and all motoring assumes someone competent at the wheel !

 

[zedhead260]

I've always said that the true test of a cars' performance is a timed lap (accelration, gear-changing up and down, braking, corners etc) - it was pointed out to me that that was more a test of the driver. Except that Skiddy mentioned NOT being a stupid driver on a recent post re drag-runs so any and all motoring assumes someone competent at the wheel !

But surely there are even more variables to consider.

 

[DJZ 60]

Fast is the New Slow! & whicheverway you look at an equation..
Slow will alway's be the old Fast!

2+2 = Linear beauty x coefficient motion Hyphothesis.
DJZ 60.

 

[SeanDezart]

But surely there are even more variables to consider.

Such as ?

 

[zedhead260]

Such as ?

Correct line through corner.
Correct braking point.
wet / damp / dry track conditions.

All you have at the end of each lap is a time - what do you learn from it other than lap 1 was faster than lap 2 and you crashed on lap 3.

Or are you adding formula one style data logging to your car ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Correct line through corner.
Correct braking point.
wet / damp / dry track conditions.

All you have at the end of each lap is a time - what do you learn from it other than lap 1 was faster than lap 2 and you crashed on lap 3.

Or are you adding formula one style data logging to your car ?

Assuming a competent driver...no crashing ! And why not a laptop taking data ?

All one has at the end of a 1/4 mile is a smoking clutch and (if you're lucky) under 15 seconds of fun !

People say that track sessions are expensive and that drag runs are cheap motorsport but how about a real comparison of fun-time per £ ?

Circuits separate the men from the sheep (the Welsh and Aussies excepted

 

[SKiddell]

Such as ?

Err corners, other cars, rain, changing fuel weight, tyre wear, brake fade, lateral G forces, steering geometry.
A track driver cannot push the car flat out around a circuit the entire distance for many reasons, such as wear and tear, fuel usage and it wont go around corners at 200 MPH, etc and often there is often no need to go flat out just quicker than the guy next to you as the overall objective is finishing first, the objective on the drag strip is slightly differant, the aim (from my perspective) is totally focused on the clock -- beating the guy next to me is a bonus.

So we learn that :

1) getting the power down is crucial, more so than how much one has (like making love really)

2) reaction times do count (dope smoking doesn't help your 0-400m times)

3) getting the torque low down is crucial too (no point having 900bhp if sod all hapens below 5000rpm)

4) keeping the torque and bhp all the way through the rev. range is crucial (engines like consistency...like women do)

1. Yes
2. No Sean, as I emailed you, your reaction time IS NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR ELAPSED TIME ie my 13.72 was from the moment my car crossed the start line (which is after any reaction time) until I crossed the finish line ----- SEE NO REACTION TIME
3. No wrong again , I launch at 4500 change gear at 7500 after the launch the car never goes below 5000-- where does low down power and torque come in ?????????????????????????????????
4. Possibly

I've always said that the true test of a cars' performance is a timed lap (accelration, gear-changing up and down, braking, corners etc)

measured against what though ???????, you certainly would find it difficult to get a calculated HP figure as the line that a driver might take would alter the overall distance an the weight of the car would change throughout a run plus it inevitably will not be on level ground.

So, I think I might have a sporting chance to get into the top five in the Drag Race Challenge Class no. 1.

I can just see it now, at the start line arguing with the officials
"Why is that light green and not bleu, why is it 400 metres , why is it called Santa Pod , Why do you use tarmac.

Arghhhhhhhhhh, how come we have we gone from a "lets bash throttle bodies even though we don't understand them" thread, to a "lets bash drag racing ---- even though we have'nt got the foggiest"

 

[boomer]

Maybe hill-climbing would be the better way to test a car...

It's a race
Drag style start
Track driving technique
Rallying anticipation but nobody to read the notes
One run to state your case!

 

[SeanDezart]

Err corners, other cars, rain, changing fuel weight, tyre wear, brake fade, lateral G forces, steering geometry.
A track driver cannot push the car flat out around a circuit the entire distance for many reasons, such as wear and tear, fuel usage and it wont go around corners at 200 MPH, etc and often there is often no need to go flat out just quicker than the guy next to you as the overall objective is finishing first, the objective on the drag strip is slightly differant, the aim (from my perspective) is totally focused on the clock -- beating the guy next to me is a bonus.

1. Yes
2. No Sean, as I emailed you, your reaction time IS NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR ELAPSED TIME ie my 13.72 was from the moment my car crossed the start line (which is after any reaction time) until I crossed the finish line ----- SEE NO REACTION TIME
3. No wrong again , I launch at 4500 change gear at 7500 after the launch the car never goes below 5000-- where does low down power and torque come in ?????????????????????????????????
4. Possibly

measured against what though ???????, you certainly would find it difficult to get a calculated HP figure as the line that a driver might take would alter the overall distance an the weight of the car would change throughout a run plus it inevitably will not be on level ground.

Arghhhhhhhhhh, how come we have we gone from a "lets bash throttle bodies even though we don't understand them" thread, to a "lets bash drag racing ---- even though we have'nt got the foggiest"

Other quote from yourself : "End to end elapsed time is all about power, traction and gearchanges ----- not reation time !" But reaction time DOES count in gearchanges, letting the clutch out etc !

You're comparing a circuit against a drag-strip from a bhp comparative basis, I remind you of my statement (no mention of bhp, just a cars' true performance) :
"I've always said that the true test of a cars' performance is a timed lap (accelration, gear-changing up and down, braking, corners etc)"

Now, if for you, the true test of a cars' performance is the fastest time in a straight line and/or how much bhp you have, then me talking circuits is complete rollocks as far as you're concerned. But since time began, the celebrated competitors , their cars and the races have always been in circles - does that tell you something or are those blinkers THAT wide ?

I'm not TB bashing, niether am I drag-strip bashing, defending a way of thinking does not entail putting the other fellow down (in my book). And I am defending my belief that a circuit is a true test of the overall package of a car - a TRUE performance guide .
I accept that it is harder to quantify in pure figures than a straight line but a test of a car over a varied and trying route with the ability to improve on that same 'route' with experience will test the whole car and for longer that 15 seconds - let's face it, you could do drag runs with std brakes with the run off you have available and a very much more restricted cooling system to reduce weight ! Things that an overall performance car requires !

When you dump your clutch (or delicately feed it in ?) don't your revs drop and you benefit from having a 2.8 and the extra ccs that gives you over a smaller block ? That's torque isn't it ?
Is all your power above 4500 revs , Then your cqar aint so good for the road as previously quoted ! If you have great pulling power from 2000 revs - that's torque !
So you tell me if torque counts ?

 

[zedhead260]

You're comparing a circuit against a drag-strip from a bhp comparative basis, I remind you of my statement (no mention of bhp, just a cars' true performance) :
"I've always said that the true test of a cars' performance is a timed lap (accelration, gear-changing up and down, braking, corners etc)"

So how do you account for cars that don't handle that well, have mediocre braking but have blistering lap times cos they are sooo foooking fast down the straights ??

A test of true performance ??? I think not.

 

[boomer]

You mean a corvette ????

 

[SeanDezart]

Ha, ha, ha nice one Boomer ! Rob, you need to leave that Celica alone and get back in your Z to know what I mean :

drive flat out in a std Celica and brake at the same point as a std Z before the corner, add a bit of rain if you prefer and tell me that your lap time is only just less than the Zs ! Maybe you can be at the same speed on the straight (if it's long enough ;-) but don't try and hoodwink me with blistering laps - please !

 

[mikecart]

I'm with Boomer regarding hillclimbing, it includes the extra challenge of an incline and corners, and retains the element of man and machine versus clock.

Mike

 

[ben240z]

But since time began, the celebrated competitors , their cars and the races have always been in circles - does that tell you something or are those blinkers THAT wide ?
sorry sean but i think that you will find that the earliest form of organised motorsport was in fact hill climbing which is definately not round and round.

 

[ben240z]

I'm with Boomer regarding hillclimbing, it includes the extra challenge of an incline and corners, and retains the element of man and machine versus clock.

Mike
hear hear hill climb is a drag race with corners and inclines. The majority of the tracks are purpose laid tarmac of race track spec. I still think that it would be a good club challange to have drag racing/ hillclimbing/ sprinting and auto testing all in the same challange. All non contact (cos you are on the track on your own) and all against the clock. Statistically you are more likely to pick up damage on a track day than at any of these sports. But thats another thread