Modern S30 project! 1st Stage LS1 V8 Engine Swap

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
SKiddell said:
some of us L series guys do actually achieve something rather than pay someone else to do it for us.
Mi-friggin-aow Mr K!:D

I hope I wasn't included in that dig, being that you said it on my thread and all! :confused:

RRRAAAASSSSPPPPP!;)
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
No it was not directed at anyone around here I can asure you, I dont do personal jibes, its more a type of person that exists in car club land:( --- there are many in the car club world that have no input into their car what so ever, they just sign the cheque and drive the car away happy to quote Hp figures and bask in the reflected glory-- that takes no skill what so ever, admittedly many people do not have the skills to use a spanner or wire a connector, that still shouldnt preclude involvement -- or learning new skills.

I was also defending the L series modifiers who work and fight very hard for every last ounce of HP where as "other" engines give up their Hp more freely.

Zhead mate, its not all about getting your hands dirty either, skill, creativity and vision are also required, without those, its just another "me too" build which yours certainly isnt.

I am very proud to be in a club that embraces the modifications that take place under the hoods of these cars, a big up to anyone who thinks "I can do better than that"
 

Russ

Club Member
Aye get stuck in!

Much as there is a lot of work involved, to get hp a SBC is the easy way out, squeezing the last few out of an L series takes some magic :) I think getting the package to work is the trick with the v8, no good if it's all engine and nothing more.

Getting mine to run would be a start :)
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Skiddell, Absolutely no offence taken :D



Russ, Yes SBC's do make horsepower cheaper than most engines and easier than some (is that a bad thing or just a testament to the flexibility of the engine platform?), but as you said it's not just about the engine. To me my car is an entire design, a package of the bits I have liked out of others designs and ideas I have had myself, assembled with a bit of creativity, in order to reach my design brief; To build a modern car that looks in as many ways, as I can keep it, like a stock early S30.

I could have used a multitude of other engines to fulfil this part of the brief with the RB2* engines being favourite after the GM, Ford, V8's or of course modernising the existing engine. All very worthy solutions, but I felt none fitted the brief like the LS1. Like the cast iron SBC, the L series engines were designed many decades ago, also the £/BHP curve doesn't stack up with the size of power output I was after (300+BHP/300+LB-FT)! The RB2* engines are marvellous IMHO, however, I did not want a turbo engine that is heavy on the petrol with peaky torque. BTDT!! I also wanted to push weight back from the front of the car, with the engine block preferably being behind the front axle line and by being as low in the car as possible. This all led me to the GM hunk of ali that I now have, its not meant to be a cop out of doing the hard work of tuning, its a straight forward educated decision based on my brief and my abilities.

This is not a dig, it’s just to point out that it is easy to belittle others projects using 'the easy way out' without knowing why they have done what they have done.

 

Russ

Club Member
Hey I wasn't knocking your engine choice, I'd sell my family if I thought I'd get enough money for an LS7!

I was just saying if you want to make HP then the easiest way is to get a SBC, not tune the L-series. And that is still true no matter how it affects your CofG, it's a good choice and the reason it's probably the most common swap. Even the old iron blocks are a wise decision.
 
G

GlenZ

Russ & Skiddell
Your arguments would only hold true if you were comparing direct HP numbers i.e. a relatively mundane 5.7 litre SBC with 250bhp to a highly tuned L series with 250bhp and since it is rare to find such an engine in a Z we won't go there.
GM went to a lot of trouble and employed advanced engine building techniques to squeeze 500bhp from the LS7
It would appear that it is just as difficult to get HP out of one N/A engine as the other, the L series is no different to the SBC in this regard, and the people who tune them (L series) are no cleverer or work any harder to tune them than the SBC boys, in fact it could be argued that the SBC boys employ much more advanced and sophisticated techniques to tune their cars. It is all about displacement and it is just as difficult and costs proportionately just as much to squeeze 550bhp from a 6.6 SBC as it to get 275 from a 3.2 L series.
You will also find that most SBC engine swaps into Z's have been moderately if not highly tuned the latter using the very same tried and tested tuning techniques used in the best L series engines around, just employing in most cases more advanced state of the art technology which ultimately is more difficult and expensive to do.
Whilst on the subject of working hard you should not underestimate the difficulty of installing a 6 litre V8 or any V8 for that matter in a Z compared to just slipping a tuned L series into place. Come to think of it I cannot think of many L series boys who have gone to the trouble that Wyn has gone to in the quest for the same power.
In my opinion the reason why the V8 boys go to the trouble of installing a SBC or similar in their cars is simply because they do not see the point of enduring the same or even less trouble and in most cases spending the same money to get a measly 250-280bhp which is in your average hot hatch territory these days. You can buy a fully galvanized Recaro leather trimmed and air-conditioned 2 year old hot hatch with 240plus bhp for the same money as a tuned L series engine, better still you can buy a Porsche 944 turboS with 325bhp for a third of the price of a tuned L series engine, not to speak of the 5 x Z32tt’s you can buy for the same money, most of us feel that spending that much on an L series engine just doesn’t stack up anymore, and to finally put the price of tuned L series in perspective I have just bought a 3 year old AMG SLK32 for 12K (350bhp and 0-60 in 4.6, ¼ mile in 12.9………..which is why you will probably find that there are more hybrid Z’s being built than state of the art L series engines. Now regarding reliability and economy...............let's not go there now
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Sorry GlenZ I disagree

it is just as difficult and costs proportionately just as much to squeeze 550bhp from a 6.6 SBC as it to get 275 from a 3.2 L series


Therefore by your own argument a V8 is easier and cheaper to tune to get a specific Hp !!!!!!

I can buy that V8 straight off the shelf and lets face it which would you rather have in a Zed for performance

The L series costs way more per Hp than a V8

EG A decent 3.1 stroker with carbs and all the goodies with 280 Hp, built to last more than 10 minutes (carrillo rods, cast pistons, steel crank and all the goodies) will cost upwards of £8K thats £28 per Hp and who would build it - one, maybe 2 sources in the UK.

A 440 Hp stump puller from Scoggin Dickie http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/1310/Edelbrock-Crate-Engines.htm
in a crate ready to go will cost around £6000 inc import and tax thats £13 per Hp and £2K left in your pocket (includes a steel crank).

Now lets talk of remaining potential, the L series at 280 hp will have nothing left in reserve and wont be super strong (porous bores/blocks, core shift tra la la), where as the 440 V8 has plenty to go, its not even breaking into a sweat -- heck it would even lap up a 100 Hp shot of nitrous for breakfast --=- now which one has easy to get Hp.

I haven’t even got into the whole torque and power delivery discussion which lets face it is far more relevant than quoting meaningless Hp figures and reinforces the argument further.
 

Russ

Club Member
I can't really be bothered to give a full reply as you've gone off on one. All I said was

Russ said:
I was just saying if you want to make HP then the easiest way is to get a SBC, not tune the L-series.

It is, factomondo. I can look at any number of catalogs and pick parts (with some thought involved) and using 350 cubes make hp. If I wanted to do that with an L-series I'd be about 3ltrs short before I even started. That's why I won't bother as I'd like the HP without taking the engine to within an inch of it's life.

Oh and I echo what Steve said.

Don't be offended that your choice of engine offers you big hp more easily than an L-series, I still appreciate the fact it wasn't already in there when you bought the S30 and you have to do a tidy job of it, and match it to the rest of the car.
 

zedhead260

Well-Known Forum User
GlenZ said:
in fact it could be argued that the SBC boys employ much more advanced and sophisticated techniques to tune their cars.
How's that then ????


GlenZ said:
In my opinion the reason why the V8 boys go to the trouble of installing a SBC or similar in their cars is simply because they do not see the point of enduring the same or even less trouble and in most cases spending the same money to get a measly 250-280bhp which is in your average hot hatch territory these days. You can buy a fully galvanized Recaro leather trimmed and air-conditioned 2 year old hot hatch with 240plus bhp for the same money as a tuned L series engine, better still you can buy a Porsche 944 turboS with 325bhp for a third of the price of a tuned L series engine, not to speak of the 5 x Z32tt’s you can buy for the same money
That is a crap argument, if all that matters is cost / BHP then you started in the wrong place to begin with. I'm sure there are much cheaper shells ripe for a V8 transplant, how about a Ford Sierra............or does that sound ridiculous ?

As for a 2 year old 240+ bhp hot hatch being an alternative to a Z; well, that's as ridiculous as someone suggesting a Sierra with a V8 as an alternative to your hybrid.

If I only manage a measly 250 - 280bhp from my L, I know I'll still woop an equivalently powered hot hatch because it weighs more than my S30, my car will handle far far better, and I'll look a damn sight cooler in doing so.
 

Phantom

Active Forum User
Zeeman -

I forget your plans for the half-shafts. Since I just recently cratered a driver's side half-shaft universal (20,000 miles on it), I would suggest going with the CV joint upgrade. I'm driving gently on a used Datsun U-joint now and planning the upgrade - 300ZX half-shafts & adapters.

I'm intrigued with your quest for a power steering system for the car. I know it's been done on this side of the pond using Ford and Subaru racks but that does require a fair abount of fabrication. I've held off and just contnued with the manual system. The LS1 added no weight to the front of my car so it had no detrimental effect on the steering. I can go into an oversteer situation now with a wee bit of throttle that the L28 couldn't give me, though.:)
Anyway - I'd think with all the hydro lubrication your roads get there that manual would be fine. Mine turn very easily when the surface is damp.
 

Russ

Club Member
GlenZ said:
GM went to a lot of trouble and employed advanced engine building techniques to squeeze 500bhp from the LS7
Not much of a squeeze is it. 500 out of 7ltrs! Ok it makes the same in torque but it's still only 71bhp/ltr. Skiddell manages 90bhp/ltr and he's doing it alone with a 30yr old engine :) That's more like a squeeze.

I'd have been impressed if they'd got 700bhp from it, seems a fair amount for the capacity. If they'd gone to a lot of trouble and employed advance engine building techniques I'd want 1000.

My bike engine engine makes 150bhp/ltr, if only they could have scaled it up :) That'd be 1050bhp from 7ltrs then (without four turbos either).
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Timeout!

Ok can I call a timeout on this 'discussion' or can a mod move it to another thread please? :mad:
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Phantom said:
Zeeman -

I forget your plans for the half-shafts. Since I just recently cratered a driver's side half-shaft universal (20,000 miles on it), I would suggest going with the CV joint upgrade. I'm driving gently on a used Datsun U-joint now and planning the upgrade - 300ZX half-shafts & adapters.
Phantom,
Sorry to here about your shaft detonation and I hope it didn't do any damage to your floor pan/suspension when it let go.
Yes I was planning to do either the 300ZXT or 280ZXT CV shaft upgrade with the Modern Motorsports billet adapters at some point. Having upgraded every other part of the drive-train and having read a fair few reports of joint destruction both over here and over there I was a little concerned. I think I'll get the bits and do the upgrade before the car hits the streets now thought! Cheers for the warning!:)

Phantom said:
I'm intrigued with your quest for a power steering system for the car. I know it's been done on this side of the pond using Ford and Subaru racks but that does require a fair abount of fabrication. I've held off and just contnued with the manual system. The LS1 added no weight to the front of my car so it had no detrimental effect on the steering. I can go into an oversteer situation now with a wee bit of throttle that the L28 couldn't give me, though.:)
Anyway - I'd think with all the hydro lubrication your roads get there that manual would be fine. Mine turn very easily when the surface is damp.
My quest for power steering is more to do with my requirement for the car to be running with modern underpinnings more than for any technical/mechanical reason. It is certainly not an essential item to my build, more of a 'if I can get it to function with a moderate amount of work then I'll go for it' type option.

It seems that GM and some of the French car manufacturers have developed a number of purely electrical column mounted units that require no changes to the steering rack. Some of these systems are speed sensitive or can have manual controls fitted in order to vary the assist for whatever you wish to do with the car. Whether something like that can be mounted under the dash in a Z I don't know. Well not at the moment anyway!

I'll let you know how it goes or doesn't, hopefully in the next few months!

Cheers
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Hi Russ, No problem with leaving it as is unless there is anymore that needs saying? In which case it maybe worthy of its own thread.

Cheers
 

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Time to get the last of the engine parts ordered

Ceramic coated headers.....

LS1-Zcar-Headers.jpg


New clutch master
MC2.jpg


Anybody know a exceptionally cheap place to by good quality braided lines of the Aeroquip variety?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
zeeman1972 said:
Anybody know a exceptionally cheap place to by good quality braided lines of the Aeroquip variety?

If they're cheap - why buy 'em ? Seriously, I don't think that there are cheap places.
 

DJZ 60

Well-Known Forum User
MJP AUTOS. You need to speak to Mike Feeney also known on this forum & other planets as MR.F DJZ 60.:cool:
 

Mr.F

Inactive
I can get hybrid lines made to pattern supplied / measurements and specifications supplied if necessary or supply parts to make whatever combinations you require. Standard Z and ZX flexy brake pipe sets from stock (except Z31 and Z33).
We use Speedflow parts, which are probably a little more economic than Aeroquip.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zeeman1972

Well-Known Forum User
Hi Mike - Cheers for that! Is there anything you can't get:bow: ??

I'll give you a call as soon as I have a relatively accurate list of bits.
 
Top