FS: L28 3.3ltr Short Engine | Page 3 | The Z Club of Great Britain
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FS: L28 3.3ltr Short Engine

Discussion in 'Parts and Other Items for Sale' started by Lurch, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader


    Datsun Spririt don't quote power figures.

    Surely people are curious to learn more of Les C. ?

    Sorry that they were taken as under the surface - I thought I was far less discreet than that:devil::rolleyes:

    I'm not taking jibs - I'm just supporting the argument that it's NOT because people in the UK don't value their Zs highly enough when a lot of evidence points to the contrary. However, it is rather obvious that people on THIS forum don't value Zs highly engough and not just because nobody here bought this engine.

    The engine wasn't advertised in France or in French - sum of uz don wanna speek yor rrrotten languidge !:p
     
  2. Albrecht

    Albrecht Active Forum User

    The short engine in question is hardly an accurate litmus test of the UK/European market, is it?

    The shipping cost (with 20% VAT whacked on the total of that and the 13k AUSD cost - if you're honest and legal) is one thing, but so is the fact that said short engine is (no offence Lurch) somebody else's unfinished project. There's still a lot that needs to be decided, parts sourced, machined and set up. That's going to cost. But how much...?

    Such a particular bottom end would require an equally high-specced head and induction system, so it would be interesting to hear a quote on what that (P90) might cost. Any comment Lurch?

    And when it's done, what have you got? A great engine for sure, but for what? It's a road engine that could be turned into a race engine, but at 3.3 litres it's not legal for anything much in the 'historic' categories and that's a fairly big slice of the potential market in the UK for hi-po L-gata engines. So it's kind of between two markets really; A bit too many what-ifs for the people who want a plug-in power unit that doesn't cost more than their car, and it's not the full bespoke engine that the people who can afford such builds seem to want.

    So, nice short engine, but a 12k sea miles/50 day away one-off and hardly something that's going to tell us which way the wind is blowing in *the market* over here. It makes much more sense for a local (Aus) buyer who can work with the builder to finish it off, and doesn't need to ship it half way across the world.
     
  3. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    And perhaps why those, who want 'plug-in' top power go for turbo swaps here...just as in the States, it was always (and still is - LS) V8 swaps.

    So, if we exclude the engine recently up for sale and go back to my point being that there ARE people in the UK willing (and have done) spend big money on their 240Zs and I'm not talking competition car nor Samuris......do you agree or not ? "Don't wait for the translation, answer 'yes' or 'no'!

    Becasue it seems that some here under-value 'our' cars and assume or generalise that that is the mood throughout and applying to everyone, quoting 'ignorance' whereas there are a lot of switched on people turning towards Zs and putting their money where their discretionary mouths are !
     
  4. Albrecht

    Albrecht Active Forum User

    Sean,
    Apropos "the value of Zs":

    Within the last 24 hours an NOS 432-specific Nissan S20 engine block (yes a bare, unstamped replacement block) sold on Yahoo Japan auctions for 3,151,000 JPY. At today's exchange rate that's roughly 21.5k GBP....

    Is that a good thing for *values*, or a bad thing...?

    http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t496375710
     
  5. Lurch

    Lurch New Forum User

    It always irks me when people refer to Rebello as the 'standard' for performance L series builds, as people always accept claims as gospel without bothering to understand what they are ACTUALLY looking at.

    Les has a couple of sayings:
    1. "People don't move outside their 'clan/tribe' ", to entertain other options.
    2. "It's all about impression ratio": what looks 'shiny' & is advertised as being the 'ducks guts' trumps something that has had the time & engineering expertise lavished upon it to create a superior product.

    And actually Les is very well known in Europe - he has a few customers in Denmark, Holland & Norway.

    In the USA there is Greg Scott & the Green Hornet, as well as another customer in Cali that has ordered a full 3.4ltr engine & driveline package.
    The majority of Yanks are notorious for being ignorant & only dealing with themselves, so to sell TWO packages into the US is downright staggering...

    Les has also sold engine packages to people in Africa for Safari Rally Datsun's, cylinder head packages to Costa Rican drag racers, enthusiasts in SE Asia also have some of his packages & he's just signed a contract with a Malaysian based shop to supply them with bespoke L4 & L6 drivetrain packages...

    It just seams the UK hasn't discovered him yet...


     
  6. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    A good thing for JDM Fairlady Z and 432 specific model prices - yes in my view just as if P30 or E88 stamped parts attained their real value here instead of being overshadowed by F54 and P90 parts for Euro Zs !

    The more money people are prepared to pay, the better the work will be on the cars and also seperate parts such as engines. It's very rare that people pay to restore a car worth £8k but a different ball-game when worth £48k !
    Money saves cars that present well and promote the make to others - snowball effect.

    Dwindling prices encourage banger-racing and the demise of many cars - Preet will testify to how many classic Datsun saloons have disappeared 'cos they were cheap to buy !
     
  7. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    Right on.:bow:
     
  8. datsfun

    datsfun
    Z Club Member

    Sean, if you exclude competition cars, I am not sure there is an abundance or even more than a dozen folk who will spend BIG Money on Engines here. Big money on the restorations, YES agreed and there is a growing trend that finally owners are willing to spend big bucks for high end restorations. But I am yet to see a so called tsunami of owners all queuing up with expensive high end engine builds ( US sourced, local produced etc). For the avoidance of doubt, I am referring to say > £15k (BIG Money) being spent on the L gata and in non competition cars. Hopefully you will proove me wrong....

    As for Les, well anyone who can re engineer and build a LZ20B is a legend in my books.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2016
  9. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    Where will you see these people Preet...here , On datsun uk's FB page ?

    Yes or no ?:)
     
  10. datsfun

    datsfun
    Z Club Member

    Since I am in the dark, kindly enlighten me o' learned one. :confused:

    Please share what you know, you can keep ID of the owners discrete :thumbs:
     
  11. Lurch

    Lurch New Forum User

    Hi Alan,
    No, I am not offended.
    You do indeed have a valid point - I was unsure of what the UK market thought of my short engine, however I now - after reading this thread - have a clearer picture.

    Indeed, I was not selling the short engine as something that one could slap a P90 on with a mild cam & away one goes.
    It was merely a way for a potential buyer to get a large capacity short engine at a - believe it or not - reduced cost, which they could then build to their own specification.

    As for costing of a complete LONG engine, Les quoted a complete, 300hp capable P90 cylinder head & camshaft package, fitted to my short engine for AUD$5300.
    Then the clutch - AUD$800 approx, Balancer - AUD$600. Distibutor - AUD$800.
    45mm Webers & manifold - AUD$2000 approx. Extractors - approx AUD$1000
    So yes it adds up.
    However I was willing to work with a overseas buyer if they so wished to continue the build & have delivered a complete running, dyno tuned engine.

    As for the intended use of the engine Alan, respectfully I think you've misinterpreted it's purpose.
    In the FS ad I noted that this was NOT a competition engine, as I had originally built this engine for my '70 240Z road car - however plans changed...
    This short engine was for someone after a unit that delivered very high on-road performance that was not like any regular L6 engine. If they wished to do the odd track day, it would also be capable of delivering shattering on track effectiveness.

    In the end it was always going to be up to the individual to decide if this was the direction they wanted to take.

    Thanks to everyone for their interest & kind words, and if anyone is interested in a unique L6 engine for their Z & has a suitable budget, please don't hesitate to get in contact with Les Collins via his website.

    Cheers,
    L.
     
  12. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    What do you really care about S30s ? No, I'm not sharing neither sellers nor buyers here.

    Dwindling prices encourage banger-racing and the demise of many cars - Preet will testify to how many classic Datsun saloons have disappeared 'cos they were cheap to buy !

    True or false ?
     
  13. Rob Gaskin

    Rob Gaskin Membership Secretary Staff Member Committee Member

    'I built this as a fast road engine for my 240Z only.'

    All I can say is you must have some 'fast roads'. :driving:

    Perhaps it could be fitted with one of 'Richiep's' twin-cam heads? :devil:

    Very interesting, I have a few questions which some of you engine 'boffins' can answer for me - every day is a school day.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2016
  14. Rob Gaskin

    Rob Gaskin Membership Secretary Staff Member Committee Member

    1/2 grout fill - please explain, I use grout when tiling. ;)

    offset bored to 89mm. What do you do about head gaskets?

    Deck milled parallel to crank tunnel centreline. Shouldn't that always be the case?

    Clearanced crankcase - please expalin. Longer stroke so crank could foul case?

    Blanked oil pressure relief port. - to avoid issue if valve fails?

    Standard sump & pickup. No baffles?

    Custom SPS 89mm forged pistons – designed to work with a P90 head.

    *This short engine requires a P90 head to be used.* Please explain what is specific, combustion chamber shape, waterways, valve angles?
     
  15. racer

    racer Active Forum User

    QUOTE=Rob Gaskin;262408]


    I think I know some of this Rob but Lurch please jump in, expand and correct me.

    1/2 grout fill - please explain, I use grout when tiling. ;)

    I thought it was resin that was used but maybe just terminology?
    The idea Rob is to strengthen the block and prevent core shift when over boring to that extent.

    offset bored to 89mm. What do you do about head gaskets?

    To ensure an even bore wall thickness around the piston.
    Use a 90mil Head gasket.

    Deck milled parallel to crank tunnel centreline. Shouldn't that always be the case?
    Not sure on this one.

    Clearanced crankcase - please expalin. Longer stroke so crank could foul case?
    Yes

    Blanked oil pressure relief port. - to avoid issue if valve fails?

    Common practice when running a high pressure pump.
    You don't want a sudden drop in oil pressure at 7000 Rpm

    Standard sump & pickup. No baffles?
    Not a track engine but still preferred, just not in the sale.

    Custom SPS 89mm forged pistons – designed to work with a P90 head.
    Maybe a intrusion crown?

    *This short engine requires a P90 head to be used.* Please explain what is specific, combustion chamber shape, waterways, valve angles?[/QUOTE]

    Best flowing head of any Lseries, needed for such a big engine.
     
  16. Lurch

    Lurch New Forum User

    Yes we do :devil:
    The crux of it was that I wasn't going to warranty it for any serious competition use.
    If it had a billet crank - no problem...

     
  17. racer

    racer Active Forum User

    Thanks for that Lurch.

    I'd be interested to know why the Intrusion crown with that bore size?

    Presumably your P90 is skimmed and welded and would easily gain the required compression ?

    Wouldn't flat tops be better for the flame front?

    Sorry for all the questions.
     
  18. Rob Gaskin

    Rob Gaskin Membership Secretary Staff Member Committee Member

    'racer' and 'Lurch' thank you for your replies.
     
  19. Lurch

    Lurch New Forum User

    Hi Matt,
    No, the P90 is not welded or heavily skimmed.

    As you probably know P90's have a deeper chamber (ports are higher in the head too), so to get the compression up, you have to run a raised crown / 'lumpy top' piston.
    The raised crown also promotes better cylinder burn - as long as the crown is designed correctly.

    Flat top pistons in a engine like this, with the Kidney shaped combustion chamber of the P90 would create a horrible flame front / burn pattern.
    Remember - this is not a BMC A-series engine where a flat top piston is the norm.
    Have a look at a current NASCAR R06 piston - you'll notice the size & the design of the crowns are quite pronounced...

    Shaving a P90 excessively to gain the desired static CR creates all sorts of issues, notably the timing chain geometry (shims only get you so far) as well as deck stability of the head.
     

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