Four pot Vented upgrade options

[uk66fastback]

Incredible that 'engine braking' isn't part of the test ... once you learned it you always do it, nt rock up at warp speed now like the kids do and then bang on the anchors at the last minute - fifth to second gearbox change etc ...

I had a BMW pile past me the other day up to a roundabout and he then must have braked about 100-150m before I did, to get down to the speed to go though the thing ... maybe it was an auto ...

On my first Mustang I had four wheel drums and boy, were they poor. But a new master cylinder, some new fluid etc and adjusted correctly they were acceptable (just) ... you can see why the upgrade to discs at the front was populr back in the day and also now.

On my last Mustang, it had £££££ of Wilwood stuff on it, on all four corners, drilled this, carbon fibre that - complete overkill as the thing was hardly ever driven in anger.

I've gone full circle now and can't see why you would upgrade an old car with modern stuff (unless you're tracking it) - why not just drive a modern car? I want to drive an old car using the kinda equipment they used when the car was built.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

It was aimed at all cars rob. They did a solid and vented disc option.

I think the clue is in the wording of 'sports option'. Just a sportier option to suit all demands?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

To add, I'm only looking at a 280mm 4 pot kit, so barring better pad choice and a newer design of caliper, not far away from the period options(if you squint).

 

[Albrecht]

Thanks Alan re 'in period' upgrades mainly aimed at the 432 I assume.

No, I just used the 432 (and 432-R) as an example dating from the very earliest days of S30-series Z production in 1969. Nissan made similar publications covering the L-gata engined models and comprehensive Sports/Race Options parts lists for them too.

So that's a solid disc back in the early 70s?

No, the disc in the photo is the vented type for the wider MK63-20S 4-pot calipers. They didn't bother illustrating the solid/non-vented type disc for the narrow 4-pot calipers as it was the standard OEM production disc...

 

[red baron]

try pmac he did some kits awhile back i have one toyota callipers vented disc chat to peter

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

try pmac he did some kits awhile back i have one toyota callipers vented disc chat to peter

I think he's 'retired'.

 

[AliK]

Well Rob I don't listen to the others when they call you an old fart!! But on this occasion, while I bow humbly to your decades of "proper" Z experience I would just add that since upgrading mine to the PMAC four pot kit (s12w + 505 vented) I've never looked back!!!!

The confidence it gives me on a spirited drive and on the track is worth it to me. Not because I like the automotive bling (which it isn't) but because I feel "safe" stopping as well as modern traffic is able to under hard breaking. While my original Z brakes were adequate, they were never as effective as these and quite vague.

The unexpected upside of keeping the 7/8ths master cylinder is that heel to toeing is even easier than before!

 

[Woody928]

ap cp5040 calipers
280MM(ap) g hook discs
bespoke bells
bespoke brackts
All ap mouning hardware

It costs more than the wilwood stuff, however that's for a reason, just a step up in terms of quality and performance. Not as bling looking either

And what is the magic number to be a proud owner of a pair?

How fast are you guys thinking of driving on the 'Queens Highway'?

Be honest the main reason people buy big 'sexy' or 'cool' brakes for an S30 is because they look good and they can talk about them.

I know it's human nature to like and buy more than we need but just be honest with yourself.

My experience tells me that for most people driving quickly on the road it's brake cooling that is the problem and then only if you are driving on clear twisty roads and repeatedly dabbing the brakes. When I was road-rallying in the 70s (clear rural roads between midnight and 5.30am) our brakes got very hot and the discs glowed red but if you are getting to that situation then in this day and age you should consider doing track-days instead.

Yes there are guys on here who make use of these big brakes but they do it on track.

Modern cars like a 370Z have huge brakes for road use but they are far heavier cars than an S30.

Anyway I know you'll think I'm an old fart but for most members my advice would be to fit decent brake pads and linings, decent brake fluid and try not to use your brakes as much.

It's a funny old world when folks paint their brake calipers in bright colours so that the car looks fast.

I enjoy driving in a spirited manner however I'd hardly call the current stock setup inspiring as far a braking capabilities goes and seem relatively ineffective by modern standard. Yes they do the job however the stopping distance required is quite large and while it is possible to read well ahead on the road there can be circumstances thorough no fault of your own that an emergency stop is required. At that point I would quite like to have a good setup.

I'm looking at bringing the setup up to date in a respectable manner without going overkill (which would be going four pots and vented disks all around imo). Whilst I value the input I was more hoping for advice on options as it seems the logical step up in my book. My MR2 has almost a race brake setup which is completely overkill for the road however I'm quite happy to know that I can stop very quickly if required....

the function of a gearbox is also to allow yourself the option of slowing down use the said gearbox and thus not cooking the brakes (brake fade) they dont teach you this these days driving skill example going down hill foot on brakes no brakes before you hit the bottom using gearbox controled decent have brakes to stop at bottom undertaker not required

I did my test five years ago roughly and they didn't teach this. My dad taught me originally before I had to 'forget' it for my test before learning to drive after passing my test. Gearbox is extremely useful for controlling road speed I couldn't agree more!

So it looks like the options so far are:

http://www.silverminemotors.com/datsun/datsun-240z/brake-upgrades/front-big-brake-kit-stage-4

https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/240z/300mm-front-big-brake-kit-240z

AP racing

Are there any other UK based options? and has anyone got any recommendations as to where to find drum brake rebuild/servicing kits?

Thanks for al the input so far, some really good reading here

 

[uk66fastback]

I would think Mr F could get you the drum brake servicing kits ... or import them from the US yourself ... any Z place does them I think.

 

[atomman]

I've just brought some R32 GTR front calipers to have a play around with as i've seen this conversion on a few cars in Japan but you do need an adaptor as the caliper mounting points are different

 

[johnymd]

One of my old cars was fitted with vented disks (280zx I think) and the large 260z servo. This made the biggest difference to the feeling of confidence as you didn't have to apply much pressure to stop the car. On a road car I would probably just look at an alternative servo. On my blue car I have the wilwood kit on the front but with the better disks than those supplied with the kit. I do get through disks pretty quick though and on a well used road/track car you wont get much over a year out of them. Then again, most zeds should never need to replace them as they spend most of the time in the garage .

 

[Woody928]

I would think Mr F could get you the drum brake servicing kits ... or import them from the US yourself ... any Z place does them I think.

I'll make enquiries thank you.

I've just brought some R32 GTR front calipers to have a play around with as i've seen this conversion on a few cars in Japan but you do need an adaptor as the caliper mounting points are different

Cheers for the suggestion however this is why I was hoping to find a bolt on solution

One of my old cars was fitted with vented disks (280zx I think) and the large 260z servo. This made the biggest difference to the feeling of confidence as you didn't have to apply much pressure to stop the car. On a road car I would probably just look at an alternative servo. On my blue car I have the wilwood kit on the front but with the better disks than those supplied with the kit. I do get through disks pretty quick though and on a well used road/track car you wont get much over a year out of them. Then again, most zeds should never need to replace them as they spend most of the time in the garage .

Interesting input there, I've presently got a new 7 inch servo fitted which was a re-maufactued part from the US thinking it would be up to the job. I think long term I'll be grateful of the 4 pots with the type of driving intended, seems to make the most sense to me. Just trying to decide where its worth drawing the line with plenty of variable options available.

:lol: I can't argue with the use yours gets, I'm seriously impressed. We'll be hitting 3000 miles by the end of year one though so that's good by my standards

Are these worth considering on another note?
http://www.silverminemotors.com/dat...6-upgraded-master-cylinder-for-240z-260z-280z

 

[red baron]

you could always fit some tokaido shinkansen brakes good for stopping from 285kmh so no problem there might have to use some adapters just a thought

 

[andrew muir]

I have a set of standard calipers with spacers so they can accommodate 505gti vented disks with decent pads they are great and still look standard.
Does anyone make the cliper spacers, it would be a great upgrade kit!

 

[AliK]

. I do get through disks pretty quick though .

Last time I saw you going round a track they were kind of glowing \m/

 

[Rob Gaskin]

I have a set of standard calipers with spacers so they can accommodate 505gti vented disks with decent pads they are great and still look standard.
Does anyone make the cliper spacers, it would be a great upgrade kit!

Yes, I used those early-on before I passed them on to Andrew but they don't really improve braking they just stay cooler thumbs. However they require 260Z hubs if used on a 240Z and as Andrew says they need a special spacer between each half of the caliper. Also when I had them rebuilt I had longer bolts fitted to hold the caliper together because the originals were too short for safety. And then of course you have to find Pug discs and get them machined to fit in the caliper and onto the hubs. I have a feeling they required a little wheel spacing to give clearance between the caliper and the back of my Wolfrace wheels too (but that may have been when I fitted the following.

So the next move was Range Rover calipers with the Pug discs. These were RR Classic calipers (for solid discs) but spaced again with special spacers for fitting over the Pug vented discs. Think I still needed 260Z hubs, definitely wheel spacers (with my 14" wheels) which then required longer wheel studs (bigger spline so hub had to be drilled). I was using Mintex M1144 pads and these were expensive and overhung the edge of the discs a little so after trackdays I had to file the pads flat again because they were wrapping over the edge. However the biggest problem was the hydraulics - Range Rovers have a twin circuit. Some people told me that these could be internally drilled to link the circuits. I also saw externally run solid pipes to join the two circuits. I used two pipes from each caliper (like on the standard RR) and 'teed' then on the inner wing. Not ideal, expensive and gave clearance issues.

I was tracking the car and it was a lot of pain for small gain - I wouldn't advise anyone to use RR calipers anymore but they were an accepted mod in 'the day'. I never felt 'wow these are good'. Very heavy too and my brakes were still getting too hot. Slightly better braking causes more heat.

More to follow.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

The next move was rear discs. I bought a 'kit' which required quite a lot of work again. The back-plates have to come off so the shafts come out. I couldn't split one shaft because the PO had 'liquid welded' the splines! So a trip to Pmac for some rear struts, arms and shafts. I fitted longer studs in the rear now, can't remember if I had to or if it was just to widen the 'track' to match the front. With longer studs and different wheel/tyre combinations (15" now too) I used different spacers so I had to use 'open-ended' wheel nuts to avoid bottoming if I used a narrow spacer. The biggest problem with this set-up was the handbrake, basically it isn't as effective but worst of all I couldn't get the brake to clamp before the lever was at the end of it's travel. In the end I found out that the answer was to extend the handbrake in the transmission tunnel to give more cable travel at the caliper end. The cable was one-ended too so only one end had a nipple, the other needed two cable clamps.

So again a lot of work, the brakes stayed cooler but again not a 'wow these are good' moment.

Also bear in mind that you are altering the hydraulic circuit by fitting rear discs and it can cause rear wheel lock-up if alterations aren't made to the compensating valve. Could be nasty in an insurance claim?

So I now had slighty better brakes but what a load of work, however because the car was driven very hard on track I thought it worth while.

More to follow.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Next move was to fit another front brake kit. This time I reverted to 240Z hubs to suit.

The calipers were Wilwood which were so much lighter than the RR 'boat anchors' however the much larger discs (dia and thickness) were a lot heavier than the Pug discs so overall I didn't lose much weight.

This setup was a step improvement but it had cost me about £900 I think. I used the car for one trackday at Cadwell (good brakes needed especially down into Mansfield) and then I sold it!

So going to my standard car, sold that recently - a very experienced preparer of racing cars (Historic F1 etc) looked over the car and got me to take him for a test drive (happy for me to drive).

I demonstrated the brakes - it stopped fine (can't remember if I locked the wheels), pulled up in a straight line (he commented how good that was) and he said yeh there're fine. The handbrake was good too. Would it be ok on a trackday - not really.

More to follow.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

My Current 'set-up'.

My blue car has been modified/built as a Regularity Rally car, it has done a couple of Irish rallies in the hands of the PO.

It has HiLux calipers, vented discs and rear discs. It also has a Wilwood adjustable rear pressure valve. I think it has a 280ZX servo.

To be honest I don't really know how good this set-up is because I haven't driven it 'on the brakes'. If I did a trackday I would find out.

Next time I take it out I'll use the brakes hard and report back. The best things about this car are the mid-range pull and the S14 gearbox. I built an S14 into my old car (in fact I had 3 over a few years) but this one is exceptionally good - the best box I've ever used in any car. So I like to accelerate hard, listen to the exhaust (Dezart system) and when I come to a corner that requires attention I blip the throttle (lovely sound again) and change down with my superb gbox.

I need to get out more in this car and also take the wheels off and have a look. I have tended to use the standard car.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

I think with the rear there's zero point changing from drums to discs, as the drums perform very very well. The cars weigh nothing and most the the braking effort is at the front.