Ebay awash with LHD Zeds

Off topic and no apologies for it either, but when you are discussing someone else's car in the 1st person Franco, at least have the common decency to spell it as it should be... :confused:

we were discussing cars being for sale for a long period(plethora of lhd cars on ebay), I used Robs car as an example of a well documented, good RHD car taking an age to sell, for no particular reason. No apologies needed?
 

Woody928

Events Officer
Staff member
Club Member
In case you think I'm one of the people who "bash" LHD cars...

There's some amount of missing the point in the RHD vs LHD topic. For many years - and certainly more so since the dawn of social media - we have had to endure the somewhat 'USA Uber Alles' narrative with regard to these cars. For some, it cut us to the quick. We have been asked to believe that the USA market (not even the North American market...) was the leading factor in the concept, styling, design, engineering and production of the S30-series Z. They didn't even consider it a series. It was '240Z', and that was it. Anything else - especially RHD - was "an afterthought".

And yet the North American market cars were de-contented, softened up and watered down. Compare - for example - a 1971 USA market car with a 1971 European mainland car (let's say France, Belgium, Holland, Germany or - especially so - Portugal). They could almost be different models, and certainly had majorly different driving characteristics and dynamics. Nissan put a lot of effort into coming up with the right tweaks for the more sophisticated European market, so we should acknowledge that.

So it's not necessarily anti-LHD bias you are seeing, and very likely a bit more like a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to the cobblers we have been fed.

If you're going to modify your USA market car then all well and good, but don't tell me that they are equal in sporting essence and dynamics to the models given to the rest of the world. It becomes more so when you get to the RS30 and RLS30 models, and the HLS30 '280Z' model is another thing entirely...

THAT is what some of this is rooted in.

Full disclosure: I own a 4/70 production HLS30-U North American market model Datsun 240Z too.

Not at all, I can completely appreciate the difference in terms of spec based upon country/market of origin and acknowledge how that will also effect resale value.

Personally I'm modifying my car so that it goes away from 'US spec' by upgrading/swapping out the suspension, diff, gearbox and brakes to name a few. I'm hoping when finished the running gear will have moved far past the UK market spec cars in my humble opinion because I believe it will improve and enhance the driving experience for me. (I won't go into JDM market cars as I don't know about the differences).

While I acknowledge in simple terms comparing a stock US and UK car of a similar condition, spec wise the UK market car would be superior from a driving perspective and therefore command a premium. When simply looking at this debate from the point of view of which side of the car the steering wheel falls then I genuinely don't feel it hinders the sales of these cars in the UK market or the experience for that matter.

In the interest of honestly I own a LHD US market car which arguably makes me bias however I have driven both LHD and RHD and maintain for me the steering wheel didn't change the experience. I quite openly admit that with both cars being in a stock configuration the UK car was a far superior drive! (albeit was a 260Z which I'm sure carries further changes again)

At the end of the day I think the good cars sell regardless of market and steering wheel positioning. At the moment there are a lot of poor condition and overpriced LHD cars available on ebay which isn't reflective of the market on the whole imo. Just my 2p.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Its the Portuguese ones that have a perfect spec. They must be worth quite a bit more than any UK 240z.

Ah, but Porto cars are LHD....no good then.

Alan mentions LHD and then storms into the N/A market untermench versions but at least does mention the European cars which were obviously both R and L hd.

Someone also mentioned that this Z market over here isn't far away and potentially contains many, many more Z customers and more demand = more value.

I reckon the the statement in the Z's history most often misinterpreted is :

"The USA was the Zs' most important market."

Which comes down to personal interpretation of the word 'important' - what does it mean to you ?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Personally I'm modifying my car so that it goes away from 'US spec' by upgrading/swapping out the suspension, diff, gearbox and brakes to name a few.

I'm hoping when finished the running gear will have moved far past the UK market spec cars in my humble opinion because I believe it will improve and enhance the driving experience for me. (I won't go into JDM market cars as I don't know about the differences).
/QUOTE]

Exactly, most UK market cars have been modified, perhaps it's less os a culture-crime to mod a LHD import up to and beyond stock Euro specs ?

So the 'argument' against a LHD import for being soft is less relevant in the reality on the roads/tracks here in Europe. Ask MZR, Fourways, Samuri, DJR and just about anyone else who's 'knocked-out' several cars.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
While I acknowledge in simple terms comparing a stock US and UK car of a similar condition, spec wise the UK market car would be superior from a driving perspective and therefore command a premium. When simply looking at this debate from the point of view of which side of the car the steering wheel falls then I genuinely don't feel it hinders the sales of these cars in the UK market or the experience for that matter.

Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias. Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.

I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.

A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands? The Japanese market has no particular anti-LHD bias, with many, many LHD cars from major manufacturers on their roads. Parallel imports have been a big factor in Japan since the late 1970s, and they even have toll booths, parking machines and drive-throughs specially adapted to cope. And yet LHD S30s are not that sought after in Japan and fetch far less than their original RHD counterparts. They are seen as something lesser, possibly because they are perceived as being compromised. Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
 

SacCyclone

Club Member
I wonder too if the Japanese government does not require extensive modifications to LHD US cars to meet pollution standards or other standards common to that part of the world.

I only make this point because I know that many of the Japanese market engines with very low miles make their way to the states because they no longer meet pollution requirements.

Maybe this does not apply to older S30 models but I can't help but think that government regulations have something to do with the lack of imports from the states to Japan.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias.
Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
I don't believe so Alan - most of these USA imports will be modified to some extent if not party to some 'reshelling' so I honestly don't believe that they are maligned for being 'lesser' cars - all the better in fact as that ought to insure that they're cheaper.

Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.
As do, generally speaking, UK buyers.

Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.
Needs repeating each time Alan - I do when the opportunity rises and most owners 'feel' it when they drive their 'new' import here...most think it's just a question of switching from 4 to 5spd !;)

I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.
No argument - they are !

A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands?
Had a reminder of that whilst speaking with a chap in NZ - his Japanese collegues are very interested in his stock 240Z. So why aren't the Japanese exporting from the UK ?

Ultimately, some LHD cars do make it into Japan though and although I doubt that there are many 'reshells' due to the lack of donor cars (?), it must happen....just not openly and bragged about.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
I wonder too if the Japanese government does not require extensive modifications to LHD US cars to meet pollution standards or other standards common to that part of the world.

I only make this point because I know that many of the Japanese market engines with very low miles make their way to the states because they no longer meet pollution requirements.

Maybe this does not apply to older S30 models but I can't help but think that government regulations have something to do with the lack of imports from the states to Japan.

No, you're barking up the wrong tree. Old cars imported to Japan only need to meet the period standards on testing, so any re-imported S30-series Z would only need to match its contemporary Japanese market counterpart. There's nothing to stop them doing that in theory as their emissions and safety specs were easily good enough, but the poor standards of drivetrain maintenance on most used US cars can be an obstacle. I have personal experience of this in Japan.

The low mile used engines you see coming from Japan are partly the result of Japanese owners scrapping cars because they quickly fall into negative equity. In Japan cars are 'written off'/scrapped much sooner than elsewhere in the world because of simple economics. It is often far cheaper and easier to buy a new car than it is to keep a ten year old car running legally. Unless a car is particularly valued as a niche model or a rarity, nobody will bother saving it. Some of these cars hit the massive auctions for export, but many are parted out to be sold as valuable spares. The export market for low-mile used engines and other parts (including 'half cuts') tends to drive the economics of the scrappage, so it becomes a self-supporting phenomenon.

There are no government regulations that specifically block or hinder importation of used cars into Japan.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
I don't believe so Alan - most of these USA imports will be modified to some extent if not party to some 'reshelling' so I honestly don't believe that they are maligned for being 'lesser' cars - all the better in fact as that ought to insure that they're cheaper.

You too are missing the point I was making. I'm not talking about what turns up or what people will do with them. That's a moot point. I was answering this:

Woody928 said:
I’ve got to say I completely agree with Franky, whilst this topic gets endlessly revisited I generally think that those who ‘bash’ the LHD cars are those who own and drive RHD cars.

I do get the impression some people want there to be this slight divide in terms of market value due to which side a steering wheel sits on. Still not sure why though….

...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
I believe Albrecht is crediting the average potential Z (S30 ;)) buyer with having much more knowledge/information than they mostly possess.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that many buyers are not aware of any differences between US spec. cars and UK or RHD cars aside from the steering wheel being on a different side. The average buyer has no idea about JDM spec. cars either. You need to be careful in not expecting the average buyer to have your encyclopaedic level of knowledge as in reality it is far far from it.

LHD cars in the UK will always be less desirable and cheaper in the UK market for obvious reasons regardless of origin. I had a Euro spec. LHD car that failed to achieve a higher selling price than a similar US spec. car would have made and I can only assume this was because the market/buyers were not educated enough to know or care about any differences beyond which side the steering wheel sat.

Let's get this thread back on track though. There is an important place for US imports of decent quality at the cheaper end of the market. Let's say you only have £10-15k to spend and want an S30. You will not find a RHD car worth having in this price range and if you do manage to find one (highly unlikely) it will need major expenditure to get roadworthy. However, you can buy a very nice 280Z ready to drive away on the button in this range and you will also find genuine rust free 240/260Z cars in need of cosmetic restoration rather than structural. Give me one of those anyday over a rusty patchwork quilt wreck of a UK car at the same price.
 
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uk66fastback

Club Member
I'll be honest here and say that while I knew there were some differences between the spec of a US car and a UK car besides the wheel being on the wrong side, at the time I probably didn't care as long as I was buying a manual - yes four-speed, I know ... people can bang on about the subtle differences, softer suspension, ARBs etc, but it's a Z, it's here and it's mine and I love it - and at my basic level of knowledge of S30s, for now, that's enough!

For me the ownership experience is enough, I'm too long in the tooth and too knackered by previous mods and work on other cars to care much any more whether I have the 3.54* final drive or something else ...

*might not be that ratio but you get the idea
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Old cars imported to Japan only need to meet the period standards on testing, so any re-imported S30-series Z would only need to match its contemporary Japanese market counterpart.

That's sensible ! Here, all post '72 cars are tested as if modern....!:eek:

You too are missing the point I was making. I'm not talking about what turns up or what people will do with them. That's a moot point. I was answering (Woody) : I do get the impression some people want there to be this slight divide in terms of market value due to which side a steering wheel sits on. Still not sure why though….

...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.

No, I’m not missing the point – I think you are though  !

I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !

Surely the decades of propaganda and misinformation (made for the USA, conceived in the USA, USA most important market etc, etc would convince people to buy said cars perceived to be in some way superior to those sold into Europe – a marginal market ?

You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.

I believe Albrecht is crediting the average potential Z (S30 ;)) buyer with having much more knowledge/information than they mostly possess.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that many buyers are not aware of any differences between US spec. cars and UK or RHD cars aside from the steering wheel being on a different side.

Let's get this thread back on track though. There is an important place for US imports of decent quality at the cheaper end of the market. Let's say you only have £10-15k to spend and want an S30. Give me one of those anyday over a rusty patchwork quilt wreck of a UK car at the same price.

Yep and another reason why people buy the USA imports and then start asking how to upgrade.

For rusty patchwork quilt UK cars please read European cars (2x sold here for €3500 each in the past fortnight).

Then again : https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1356516515.htm?ca=12_s
 
That's sensible ! Here, all post '72 cars are tested as if modern....!:eek:



No, I’m not missing the point – I think you are though  !

I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !

Surely the decades of propaganda and misinformation (made for the USA, conceived in the USA, USA most important market etc, etc would convince people to buy said cars perceived to be in some way superior to those sold into Europe – a marginal market ?

You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.



Yep and another reason why people buy the USA imports and then start asking how to upgrade.

For rusty patchwork quilt UK cars please read European cars (2x sold here for €3500 each in the past fortnight).

Then again : https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1356516515.htm?ca=12_s

The fact of the matter is that the Americans are starting to value their cars, so good early s30's are getting expensive before you even bring them across. That will only push up rhd prices further.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
You can’t have you cake and eat it Alan. Either the public believes that USA cars are gold (‘series 1s ?) or they believe them inferior to European (and especially RHD) cars.

Well, as chrisvega has alluded to, I wouldn't place too much stock in your average civilian knowing anything much at all about these cars. We are still at a situation where even owners and self-avowed enthusiasts think the term '240Z' means just one thing, and that they were made by a company called 'Datsun'.

That's the point. People like me (or maybe it's just me...?) have been trying to point out some fairly fundamental differences in nature across the different market models, largely because it has been so badly reported on up to now. Look at any of the magazine articles and press/web media reporting on the '69 through '73 cars over the last 20 years and you'll see mistakes, misconceptions and plain bad data repeated over and over again and often with a good dose of USA-market bias running through it. Pointing out such mistakes is not 'LHD bashing'.
 

Woody928

Events Officer
Staff member
Club Member
Perhaps I didn't make my point well enough? I'm saying that a lot of what you might perceive as anti-LHD bias is actually not anti-LHD bias per se, but instead anti-North American spec bias. Especially in the context of us being told so often that the cars were "made for the USA" etc. That stuff is written in stone now. I'm countering it with my 'softened up and dumbed down' line because somebody needs to point it out for balance.

I'm saying that the rest of the world versions are arguably superior in essence to the North American market cars in a stock-for-stock comparison. My 'rest of the world' includes European mainland/Scandinavian LHD cars.

A word about Japan: There's still a thirst for S30-series Zs in Japan. It's something of a seller's market, with demand and prices up, supply down. Why don't we see USA market LHD cars being re-imported to Japan and being eagerly snapped up at prices a fraction of what a good original Japanese market car commands? The Japanese market has no particular anti-LHD bias, with many, many LHD cars from major manufacturers on their roads. Parallel imports have been a big factor in Japan since the late 1970s, and they even have toll booths, parking machines and drive-throughs specially adapted to cope. And yet LHD S30s are not that sought after in Japan and fetch far less than their original RHD counterparts. They are seen as something lesser, possibly because they are perceived as being compromised. Japanese people - generally speaking - prefer their Japanese cars to be RHD.

I actually agree with what you’re saying, I’m sure that generally this is an anti-North American spec bias rather than a LHD, RHD debate. It would probably help if it was discussed that way as the two seem to commonly be mixed up imo. Topic titles such as this only add fuel to the fire and add further confusion.

In the greater scheme of things I believe a stock US car would and should be worth less than a stock UK, EU or JDM car on the basis of its specification and importantly not due to the position of its steering wheel. I think JDM cars will always command a premium as they are the home market cars which are viewed as the Halo cars with the best usually being reserved only for the Japanese market. I openly admit I would have loved a JDM market car if my budget could have afforded it.

I’m quite happy to admit I’d modifying my US spec car as I want to move away from that lower spec to make my car the one I would have liked when it left the factory.

Thanks for the insight, every day is a school day.

...and I suspect that I might be one of the people that Woody sees as "bashing" LHD cars.

I'll say it again. I think some of the perceived "bashing" is a reaction to decades of propaganda and misinformation, and it needs saying.

Actually no, you’re one of the people on here who I feel I can have a balanced and informative debate with.
 

Woody928

Events Officer
Staff member
Club Member
I’ve never seen you as a ‘LHD basher’and Woody, I believe, was basically asking the questions – “why should a good spec/condition LHD be automatically a lower price for a similarly spec-ed and condition RHD car ?” I don’t think that’s too hard to understand really in a RHD market….it’s more amusing to speculate on a RHD (JDM) car in a LHD market whether that be Europe or the USA !

Correct :thumbs:
 

uk66fastback

Club Member
I’m quite happy to admit I’d modifying my US spec car as I want to move away from that lower spec to make my car the one I would have liked when it left the factory.

When it left the factory though that was the spec (the one you want to change) not the spec as it might have been when viewed from the comfort and gizmo-laden heights of 2017!

Mine left the factory in 1972 as a car bound for the US and a US-specced car is what I want to drive in 2017 in the UK - complete with soft suspension, the 'wrong' gearbox etc and whatever else is considered sub-standard.

Amazes me that with such a **** spec they sold so many in the US! And with the fantastic UK spec, they sold so few!

:D
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
I actually agree with what you’re saying, I’m sure that generally this is an anti-North American spec bias rather than a LHD, RHD debate. It would probably help if it was discussed that way as the two seem to commonly be mixed up imo.

In the greater scheme of things I believe a stock US car would and should be worth less than a stock UK, EU or JDM car on the basis of its specification and importantly not due to the position of its steering wheel. I think JDM cars will always command a premium as they are the home market cars which are viewed as the Halo cars with the best usually being reserved only for the Japanese market.

No, I believe it to be a LHD vs. RHD debate BUT.....is purely USA LHD because who, in theiright minds would import an (expensive, relatively compared to the market choice in the USA) rusty European LHD into the UK ? Defeats the point doesn't it ?

Agreed with the rest 'cept not all of the JDM cars are 'most desirable' unless you're a JDM and/or OEM freak.

Well, as chrisvega has alluded to, I wouldn't place too much stock in your average civilian knowing anything much at all about these cars. We are still at a situation where even owners and self-avowed enthusiasts think the term '240Z' means just one thing, and that they were made by a company called 'Datsun'.

That's the point. People like me (or maybe it's just me...?) have been trying to point out some fairly fundamental differences in nature across the different market models, largely because it has been so badly reported on up to now. Look at any of the magazine articles and press/web media reporting on the '69 through '73 cars over the last 20 years and you'll see mistakes, misconceptions and plain bad data repeated over and over again and often with a good dose of USA-market bias running through it. Pointing out such mistakes is not 'LHD bashing'.

No, it is not LHD bashing and if anyone claimed it so against you, I would defend you fervently Alan 'cos the reporting, aided substantially by a 'loaded' English speaking press (books included) and since by the social medias has been at best poorly researched and at worst simply awful....!

What the situation needs Alan, and this has been oft repeated, is a much more detailed English-language book on the S30 from germ in someones' head, through conception design, evolution to production and commercialisation. The cherry on the top would be a more JDM slanted look at the cars' competition history and results.

THAT, would be the ultimate 'get-back' at the usual USA-slanted reporting !

People (if they even bother to read these days) read what is easily available - go on ebay and amazon and look for 'Z-books' - what do you find ? They need something better - the car deserves something better.

You might not think so Alan, but you HAVE impressed and converted many, many people and influenced the description of the cars.

Not sure ? Up until 5-8 years agao, how many people mentionned S30s ? No, they were 240Zs and 260Zs and oh yes, wasn't there an Amercial 260Z with a ZX engine ?

Describing them as S30s was a massive step towards seeing the cars as a family and not one car with some offshoots and even that one car was 'merely' an export.

Whilst we're here, just how many export versions were there please ?

USA/Canada
USA California
Cont Europe
Portugal
UK
SA/Aus/NZ (?)
Others ?

Then the 4/5speed and automatic versions...

Nearly as many as the JDM variants ?
 
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